Snowden, liberty, freedom, survalience and propaganda

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If I had hard proof, I'd already be dead. Didn't you watch x-files?
And that is...
I think they want potential leverage on everyone, when you become useful you can be used appropriatley
You know, that show about the FBI trying to solve cases about UFO's but everytime they get a solid lead, someone dies or evidence disappears...

Anyways, we can expect to see the next big Hollywood block buster about this. The government told lies about a regular Joe. Now there is chases and bullets flying, cars exploding, people dangling from helicopters, topless women all over the place. You already know...
lolwut
ModShop wrote:
:| You snipped out half the sentence to make it sound ridiculous.


I did that intentionally. What you said was crazy.

You casually throw around "a few years jailtime" like it's some kind of slap on the wrist and isn't a horrific life-ruining experience.

You would subject Snowden to that... even though you agree what he did was morally right... just because you're afraid of what other people might do. You're punishing him for other people's crimes.

Worse than that, actually... because those crimes haven't been committed yet. So you're punishing him for the possibility that other people might commit related crimes in the future. It makes zero sense.

Perhaps, but a lot of crazy people aren't known to be crazy until after they act.


If you can't trust the NSA to monitor and filter its own employees (on whom is has complete control to do background checks, psych evaluations, etc, etc), then how do you trust them to monitor and filter out potential terrorists (on whom it is much more difficult to do any of those things)?

That's the NSA's job. You're basically saying "there's no way the NSA could know", which effectively makes them a useless organization.

Really though, they wouldn't even have to be "off", I'm sure countries like China would provide quite the incentives for valuable information.


We might have strayed from the point here. If China is willing to harbor former NSA employees and compensate them for access to classified information..... what does that have to do with Snowden?

He did not find haven in China nor did he leak classified information to them (apart from what he leaked to the US) that we know of.


Like before, I think you are over-reaching here and are looking for excuses to hang Snowden based on what other people might do, rather than what he actually did.

FredBill30 wrote:
Many people still don't care.


Public apathy is not a good thing. Especially when the topic is moderating governmental agencies.

Remember... the government is supposed to work for us, not the other way around. If they're doing something we don't like and we are all apathetic about it, we're conceding civil liberties to them.

As Zereo mentioned... history is full of instances where government started running out of control once it over reached.

Not to mention the fact that he is almost certainly leaking information to China/Russia.


Source?

I think you're talking out of your ass here.

If his motivation was to leak to a foreign power, why would he have contacted US press agencies and revealed his identity?

I'm also almost certain it's no coincidence that he went straight for really the only 2 main countries that rival the US militarily.


He has to go somewhere that isn't on good terms with the US because anywhere else and he'd be extradited back to the US and have to face prosecution.

Also lol @ rivaling the US military. You know we spend like 2.5x as much on our military as the next 16 countries in the world combined?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/204c21cc52b7386a825bd07dc6ee7577.png
from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

We're not afraid of China because they pose a militaristic threat (which they don't), we're afraid of them because they pose an economic threat and could literally destroy our economy if they chose to.

The worst you could have are some dirty photos/video you're sending to your lover (Or downloading from some website). Unless you're an enemy to the US leaking info or planning an attack you should have little to nothing to worry about.


That's not the point, as I've stated in the thread previously. It's a civil liberties issue.

But I mean, they're our government. Trust that they will do right with it...


Read Zereo's reply to this. He has pointed out several instances in just the past few years where the government has been exposed betraying the US citizens and/or abusing its power for misconduct.

If you blindly trust the government, you're a fool. Remember, they work for us, not the other way around. We have to make sure they're doing their job right. We can't just trust that they are.

To that person who said the argument above is the reason that they shouldn't spy, remember - some possibility to finding enemies are better than none.


The founding fathers would disagree with you. From one of my earlier posts:

I wrote:
the founding fathers generally spoke out against the SOP of modern governmental institutions like the NSA.

Ben Franklin in particular had a famous quote: 'Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.'

And of course Patrick Henry: 'Give me liberty or give me death' -- which is not to be confused with the modern practice of "give me the closest thing to liberty as long as I don't have to worry about dying at the hands of terrorists".

People should be a lot more outraged by this than they are. You should not be rationalizing what the NSA is doing and trying to convince yourself it really is in our own best interest.
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Fredbill30 wrote:
That's a bit unsettling. What proof do you have that this has been happening for a while?

Hoover?

Eugenics? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization
Disch what I'm trying to figure out is why you replied to a post that's outdated on my current thoughts.

Kesk, thanks for that information.
Fredbill30 wrote:
Disch what I'm trying to figure out is why you replied to a post that's outdated on my current thoughts.


Sorry. I only skimmed your reply after it and missed the part where you revised your view.

My apologies!
also who's side is the NSA and the US government on? with so many high ranking ceo's of large coorperations in US government getting into politics to supplement their greater business careers they dont act like they represent the will of the people anyway, the millitary industrial complex is not to be trusted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEbfVIuUtNE

condillaza rice has an oil ship named after her!

perhaps these peoples enemies are not the same enemies as the american and british peoples, maybe then the NSA can be manipulated
Jefferson wrote "The natural process of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground."

As they say, "A government strong enough to give you everything you need is strong enough to take away all you have."

Is anyone following what has been going on in Turkey? A good example of what government does to its own people when it becomes too strong.

@Disch

Do you really think the government works for you? They work because we pay taxes. Can one not pay taxes and fire the government? What more can be said? You are the government's bitch.
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Do you think we owe the government for "giving" us what we have? I like to think that the government reflects our needs and wishes because we pay for it to protect us, I dont think many politicians respect this, I know this is not the case in the UK anyway, the upper class politicians favour the upper classes, we were proud of our nhs but the governments been undermining it for years.

The Hittites were a very interesting civilisation, they have a lot in common with modern police state societies, they confirm my belief that a bigbrother style state is actually our natural direction.
Do you really think the government works for you? They work because we pay taxes. Can one not pay taxes and fire the government? What more can be said? You are the government's bitch.


When it's functioning properly, it should. The problem is it's not functioning properly.

The solution is not to throw your hands up and say "there's nothing we can do about it". Rather, do something about it.

There's a very fine line between cynicism and apathy. When you're willing to admit you've lost, then you've lost. If you're still willing to fight and look for opportunities to improve the situation, then there's still hope.

Your statement above is one of someone who has already given up.
Well actually I'm all up for a good party as much as the next dude. The way I see it, if people want to riot in the streets then I will join in. I'm cool like that. Till then... I'll chill and let you make the first move. ;)
Fredbill wrote:

BTW - Wouldn't it be perfectly legal for US citizens to start a rebellion? I mean in the constitution it says we have the right to replace the government if they fail to protect our rights...


You're confusing the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution. The Declaration states that the people can abolish a government if that government fails to meet their needs (i.e. the Revolutionary War), the Constitution has no such statement in it.

Disch wrote:

I did that intentionally. What you said was crazy.

You casually throw around "a few years jailtime" like it's some kind of slap on the wrist and isn't a horrific life-ruining experience.

You would subject Snowden to that... even though you agree what he did was morally right... just because you're afraid of what other people might do. You're punishing him for other people's crimes.

Worse than that, actually... because those crimes haven't been committed yet. So you're punishing him for the possibility that other people might commit related crimes in the future. It makes zero sense.


What he did was a crime, plain and simple. No one is arguing that he didn't break ant laws. If he gets away with it, then why would anyone else be afraid of punishment? Especially now that the U.S. government has chased him all over the world. If you never follow through with threats to a child for misbehaving, they will continually misbehave because they have nothing to fear. And yes, compared to execution for treason, a few years of jail time is nothing.

Disch wrote:

If you can't trust the NSA to monitor and filter its own employees (on whom is has complete control to do background checks, psych evaluations, etc, etc), then how do you trust them to monitor and filter out potential terrorists (on whom it is much more difficult to do any of those things)?

That's the NSA's job. You're basically saying "there's no way the NSA could know", which effectively makes them a useless organization.


Snowden got employed by them. He leaked. Why couldn't it happen again?
What he did was a crime, plain and simple. No one is arguing that he didn't break ant laws. If he gets away with it, then why would anyone else be afraid of punishment?


People get absolved of punishment all the time (see below link as ref... and that is only presidential pardons).

http://www.infoplease.com/us/government/presidential-pardons-1789-present.html

Just because one person gets pardoned, it does not give anyone else the expectation that their crime will go unpunished. Your comparison to a child being disciplined is ill formed because children are developing social skills and need to understand boundaries, whereas adults are capable of forming rational decisions and weigh the risks of the consequences of their decisions.

And yes, compared to execution for treason, a few years of jail time is nothing.


Fair enough... while I don't agree with you at all on this I see your point.


Snowden got employed by them. He leaked. Why couldn't it happen again?


Snowden didn't leak because he was crazy. He leaked because he had morals.

If the NSA suffers repeated numerous leaks from people with strong morals exposing misconduct and abuse of power, then the NSA needs to get their shit together at best... or dismantled at worst.


I'm not saying it's ok to leak classified information. I'm saying it was ok for Snowden to leak this classified information. NSA were the ones betraying the people. To expose the betrayal, he had to betray the betrayers.


It's not that complicated, and I think most people can understand the difference.

IMO you're trying to be too black and white with the law. Which is one of the main reasons the law is so screwed.
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Honestly I agree with you (for the most part). I just love a good debate =p
Being monitored for safety reason is acceptable for me, as long as they don't try to hide that they are monitoring the people. Beside, there is no point of privacy if it allows smart people that does stupid things to get away, especially if their actions could be harmful to others.
My opinion on Snowden is that he broke the law, so, legally speaking he does deserve to go to prison. That being said, I'm on his side ethically and I hope he stays out of prison. And it's interesting that one of the papers he leaked suggests that the NSA was spying on its allies, including the EU and Britain. Thanks, Obama.
Devon are you saying you don't want a government? If it was like this I'd be the fall of Rome again. Little pockets of villages slowly gaining power and becoming kings, roads would have highwaymen, etc.

chris, you're acting like the UK doesn't spy on us, same with Russia spying on us and you.
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