Any Ladies on Here?

[jwkNwA7f]

@Disch I don't know if you are talking about me, but the OP asked are there any on here, and I answered that there was one, that's all.

[BHX]

Disch wrote:

She's forever typecast as "that one female programmer we had that one time". It's kind of pitiful.

While it is pitiful, it isn't really typecasting. She is a female programmer and she was once part of this site. For all you know she may still be here but not replying because most of the questions asked here have been asked before so she isn't inclined to reply. She could just be busy with her job and not able to post due to being exhausted.

[maeriden]

My thoughts on the matter are nicely summed up by this

Gaminic wrote:

we're overthinking/analyzing it. If, instead of saying "Oh Em Gee, a girl programmer?!" while pointing and staring, people would say "Hey look a girl programmer." and go on with their day, then things wouldn't be so awkward

The regulars here don't look like they'd make a fuss about gender. That's something I see more fitting for a community where the average age is around 18.

(I confess though, when I was that age I was frequenting a WoW forum, and did sometimes think that, but kept it to myself).

[Cheraphy]

There is a difference between a girl gamer and a gamer girl. See, the former make a point of the fact that they are a GIRL that plays video games. The latter is a gamer first and a girl second. And she will decimate your KDR, lead your party and crush your petty stronghold.

[BHX]

@Cheraphy

I pray you are joking. If not, that is the goofiest logic I've seen, and I'm the king of stupid logic. Flipping the two words around doesn't change the kind of person or gamer it is applied to.

[Cheraphy]

I was joking, and clearly you don't understand slang and how arbitrary rules can be defined in it :P

[Daleth]

Cheraphy wrote:

The ladder is a gamer...

The latter... :(

[Cheraphy]

sonofabitch *edits*

[chrisname]

@BHXSpecter
I know what he means though. There are a number of girls with Steam profiles that are basically "Yes that's right, I'm a GIRL and I play games!!! But don't hit on me you silly boys!" -- I can understand not wanting guys to make advances (which they always do), but why make such a point of announcing your gender if that's your aim? It's like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Here's a great parody: http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Earl+Gamer.+Damn+they+re+hot+Enlarge+if+needed_a699a5_3223744.jpg

@Disch
Regarding people bringing up Albatross' gender; that thread was about whether there are girls on the forum or not and Albatross was known at that point as being a girl. She was also known as being knowledgeable and such, but that thread wasn't about knowledgeable people. You should remember that she also gets brought up regularly in threads about the most knowledgeable people (as has happened recently), so I don't think the pattern you're seeing of people using her as a "token girl" is actually there. As for why these threads occasionally get made - yes, the OP could have some nefarious, ulterior motive for asking, or he could just be interested because he knows these sorts of websites tend to be heavily male-dominated. I think it's wrong to assume someone has a malicious motive when you don't know (though I'm kind of being a hypocrite in assuming that you have assumed that).

Also in the thread you linked no-one "made a point" of mentioning it; a casual comment by ModShop was the first time her username entered the thread: http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/69392/#msg370738

Finally, do you not sense the irony or feel even a teensy weensy bit hypocritical using her as an example in your tirade against people using her as an example? I mean you literally said "Albatross is a great example. She was basically the boards "token female"". In that very sentence you've used her as a "token female". I'm fairly sure you've done it in prior threads as well. You weren't the first to bring her into this thread, but you've inflated a simple answer ("Albatross is a girl") to a simple question ("Are there any girls?") into, well, this. Do you see how that's a mixed message? If you hadn't brought up how people endlessly use her as an example of a girl (using her as an example of a girl in the process) we wouldn't be having a discussion at length about using her as an example of a girl. Instead, someone would have said "Albatross is a girl" followed by the one or two comments about the merits of her posts, and then the subject would have changed. By speaking against that, you've inadvertently created a longer discussion about her gender and thus undone your own words. And like I said in my first paragraph, I don't even think being a girl ever was her defining characteristic. People always make a point of mentioning her in threads about the most knowledgeable users.

[devonrevenge]

I don't believe in female programmers, I have never seen any proof of a real one.

[Disch]

@chrisname:

I did not mean to imply anything negative about the person asking whether or not we have female forum members (nor the people who answer that question). My original point was just that if there are women on the forum, they'd probably be better off not announcing it given the forum's history with female members.

I did not use Albatross as an example to illustrate that she was a woman, but rather used her as an example of how the forums treats women. So I do not believe I was undo-ing my statement by stating such. They're similar points, but different. Kind of like how you can't really talk about car crashes without also talking about cars.

The thread I linked to may not have been the best example. Like I said it's hard to find a specific example of where this happened (googling for it is more difficult than I originally expected). Though from my memory, I do recall frequently recognizing instances of her getting depicted/treated as "the girl" of the forums. If I had a better link, I would offer it, but alas I don't.

Perhaps our recollections simply differ... or perhaps you remember things that I don't... or vice versa. And BHXSpecter was right... we don't know the reason why she doesn't post any more... but I can say that I personally am not surprised that she doesn't.

[BHX]

@devonrevenge
Ada Lovelace

@Cheraphy
I know slang, and to that extent gamer is the only slang and is not gender specific.

@chrisname
The fact that they put it on profiles doesn't matter because I've played on consoles where they never announced it and as soon as they talked guys hit on them, upon which they would get onto them for it and tell them they didn't want hit on. Mentioning it on your profile just covers that base for profile readers and helps you not have to say it in games as usually someone lets it slip that they are girls.

I have several female friends that are gamers (several are happily married or in relationships) who have it on their profiles. I have one that is married, has 2 kids, and plays Guild Wars in my guild for years. She left because people wouldn't stop hitting on her, I've since wiped my entire guild so it is just me in the guild now, but she won't come back due to idiots hitting on her.

My point is it doesn't matter if they say it in profile or keep it quiet, as soon as it is out the 'boys' on games will start hitting on them, but if it is on profile then they normally do it out of game so you know who to ignore in game.

[N36fSL3A]

Seems like a mass of twelve year olds play that game.

Why didn't she remove it?

[chrisname]

@Disch
It's far from impossible that I'm remembering something that didn't happen.

@BHXSpecter
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with mentioning that you're a girl nor am I suggesting all girls who play video games are bad. I'm talking about that minority of girls who play video games that make a big point of telling everyone they're girls as if it's impressive that they play video games. Especially when they then follow it up with "but don't hit on me". This is what Cheraphy was getting at.

Of course, the flip side of the coin is that girls who really play games for the sake of playing games, and not for attention or to look cool or quirky or unique or whatever, do get harassed a lot of the time. It's not always the case though, I remember playing TF2 and someone I'd been talking to in the text chat went on voice chat, thus revealing her true self, and no-one harangued her. That said, the tentative "Yes..." to my off-hand "Oh, you're a girl" comment shows that it does happen.

[Cheraphy]

'gamer girl' and 'girl gamer' are both slang in their own right. To be honest they don't usually carry different connotations, but my point is that they can.

Hooray for arbitrary definitions and arbitrarily applied semantics!

[devonrevenge]

thats amazing that the first ever computer programmer was a woman, why is programming so male dominated? I actually discussed this with my mum who is a writer and sometimes a femenist writer

[Cheraphy]

Science, Math and Engineering tend to be heavily Male Dominated fields. Part of that is social stigma, some of it is due to harassment from men. Ada Lovelace was a pretty unique exception for her time.

[chrisname]

Cheraphy wrote:

Part of that is social stigma, some of it is due to harassment from men.

Is it, though? This idea is frequently touted by feminists and others, and I'd like to know how they arrived at the conclusion. I've never seen or heard of any study into it, it seems to be just something we accept because we don't want to believe that men and women simply tend to be good at different things. No-one can deny that there are biological differences between men and women, but for some reason we in the west seem to assume that all gender-related variation ends at the blood-brain barrier (and the same for race as well). Further than simply showing there's no biological basis for a difference in ability, I'd also like to see evidence that women in general are actually interested. I think it's stupid not to investigate these things and to just accept without question the oft repeated mantra that "we're all the same". We're not. It's also a dangerous way of thinking. I think we have a culture of being overly sensitive to people's feelings and that gets in the way of factual investigation, and that's wrong. Of course we should be considerate and sensitive, but not when that gets in the way of progress and understanding, and this level of political correctness really does get in the way.

Personally I don't buy into the idea that women are simply worse at sciences and maths (I have heard of a study that showed no difference in maths ability between male and female students) or the idea that "social stigma and male harassment" are the primary reasons women don't go into STEM subjects. I think it's primarily a lack of interest. Of course, I am speaking in generalities. I've known girls who were and are interested and skilled in STEM subjects, but in general I think it's a subject that men gravitate towards far more frequently than women and I don't think the evil men are trying to keep the poor women out of STEM, and I certainly don't think there's an evil patriarchal conspiracy underlying it, I think men simply have a biologically-based attraction to logical systems and suchlike--something that would have been important for hunters, and don't forget that men have a massive biological advantage where hunting is concerned in the form of larger, stronger muscles and better stamina--while women seem to be more drawn to the arts. There may be some cognitive advantages relating to STEM subjects inherent to males over females, but like I said, it needs to be investigated properly and we shouldn't just accept what we're told by people with unknown motives.

[devonrevenge]

Feminism is in a bad way these days, a lot of active feminists aren't aware of what it (feminism) is, its easy to say its about equal rites and equal treatment but so many people talk about glass ceilings and different treatment as if they already understood WHY it was happening (they don't) despite how good everyone is at observing all these interesting and strange things that do occur(like why no one talks about a male tennis players looks but a female is all over the news, barring wayne rooney of course...such an ugly man on so many levels).

the whys are where feminism is lost.

[Disch]

a lot of active feminists aren't aware of what it (feminism) is,

There's pseudo-feminism, which is people complaining about things and claiming it's feminism, then there's real feminism.

I assume you're talking about the former.

Though, quite frankly, I think a feminist has a much better grasp on what feminism is than you do.

its easy to say its about equal rites and equal treatment but so many people talk about glass ceilings and different treatment as if they already understood WHY it was happening

Speaking of "glass ceilings", numerous studies have been done on the subject. It is a provable fact that women make less money than men do in the US. Granted it's unlikely that all of that is due to gender discrimination... a sizable portion of it must be... and there is evidence which strongly suggests discrimination is a significant factor.

In more progressive states, women make ~80+% of what men do. In other, not so progressive states, it's ~70-%

The wikipedia article on this is an interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

And don't get me started on the rape culture in this country... which alone justifies most feminists.

Your parallels to how celebrities and sports players are treated is kind of not the issue at all.


So yeah... as a man it's easy to knock feminism and say it's bullocks. But I say walk a mile in her shoes before you make such claims.



EDIT: Comedian Louis CK actually had a good bit about white/male privilege in this video:

Language/NSFW/etc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY