Modesty a High Form of Insult
What do you think about people who seam to be deliberately modest, or people who in the presence of other people, act modest.
For example, you invite a guest over, and your house is a little dirty, and you exaggerate saying it's a disaster and apologize.
Or you are a great guitar player, but you maybe have trouble with some little thing and you tell people you suck.
It's kind of insulting to people who's houses are always dirtier than yours was ( your guest ), or who could never play guitar as good as you.
Maybe the over the top modesty is something they convince themselves of, maybe to push themselves to do better, or for whatever other reason, but it can come off to others as pretty insulting, phony, or snobbish right?
I think the good kind of modesty doesn't really show very easily. A modest person is just not too conceded to have clouded judgement, or to be too bias in their thinking. If they are good at something, when how good they are at said thing warrants communication, they are honest about how good they are.
But modesty as an observed quality of people ( which I grew up being taught was good ), kind of seams like it really is just very insulting to others. I mean, you play yourself down, you are also playing down others.
For example, you invite a guest over, and your house is a little dirty, and you exaggerate saying it's a disaster and apologize.
Or you are a great guitar player, but you maybe have trouble with some little thing and you tell people you suck.
It's kind of insulting to people who's houses are always dirtier than yours was ( your guest ), or who could never play guitar as good as you.
Maybe the over the top modesty is something they convince themselves of, maybe to push themselves to do better, or for whatever other reason, but it can come off to others as pretty insulting, phony, or snobbish right?
I think the good kind of modesty doesn't really show very easily. A modest person is just not too conceded to have clouded judgement, or to be too bias in their thinking. If they are good at something, when how good they are at said thing warrants communication, they are honest about how good they are.
But modesty as an observed quality of people ( which I grew up being taught was good ), kind of seams like it really is just very insulting to others. I mean, you play yourself down, you are also playing down others.
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closed account (Gvp9LyTq)
I have a problem with false-modesty too. I pretend to be no better then anyone else when I know that I am, in fact, their superior in every-way.
And I can only ask that other try to forgive me for not rubbing their inferiority in their face each and every day.
And I can only ask that other try to forgive me for not rubbing their inferiority in their face each and every day.
Not everything that offends you is an insult. If I say "X does not meet my standards of quality" and from that you extrapolate that "and neither do you, because it does meet yours" then that's not really a fault with my statement. That's just you equating yourself to the things you do.
In my experience (your mileage may vary):
What htirwin is describing is not modesty / false-modesty, but is rather a symptom of either low self esteem, or being overly critical of one's self (or a combination of the two).
Most (but not all) people that do this are not nearly as critical of others. Usually they hold themselves up to a higher standard than they hold everyone else. Not to feel superior or anything... it's more of a coping mechanism.
I'll use myself as an example: When I go to my brother's house and his kitchen is a complete mess with dirty dishes everywhere, it doesn't bother me at all and I don't even really notice/think about it. But if I have a messy kitchen when he comes to my place I get super embarrassed.
Same thing if I go out unshaven -- I get really self-conscious that I look terrible... yet I don't care if I see other people unshaven -- it doesn't bother me.
I've gotten a lot better about it in recent years, but I still "get it".
That said... IMO the best response to this is:
1) Don't take offense. They certainly don't mean any offense.
2) Be dismissive. IE: The best response to "Sorry my place is such a mess." is simply "Whatever... I don't care" or "Pfft, this is nothing."
What htirwin is describing is not modesty / false-modesty, but is rather a symptom of either low self esteem, or being overly critical of one's self (or a combination of the two).
Most (but not all) people that do this are not nearly as critical of others. Usually they hold themselves up to a higher standard than they hold everyone else. Not to feel superior or anything... it's more of a coping mechanism.
I'll use myself as an example: When I go to my brother's house and his kitchen is a complete mess with dirty dishes everywhere, it doesn't bother me at all and I don't even really notice/think about it. But if I have a messy kitchen when he comes to my place I get super embarrassed.
Same thing if I go out unshaven -- I get really self-conscious that I look terrible... yet I don't care if I see other people unshaven -- it doesn't bother me.
I've gotten a lot better about it in recent years, but I still "get it".
That said... IMO the best response to this is:
1) Don't take offense. They certainly don't mean any offense.
2) Be dismissive. IE: The best response to "Sorry my place is such a mess." is simply "Whatever... I don't care" or "Pfft, this is nothing."
All good points.
What got me thinking about this are situations like this: You're obviously fairly smart, and your friend knows that, and your friend happens to be really dumb. You are hanging out with your friend trying to figure out how to do your quantum physics homework, and having a hard time, and you start going on about how stupid and worthless you are. You don't mean to be insulting, but unaware to you, you may have hurt your friend, who happens to be ashamed of his lack of intelligence.
Basically I am thinking it's not necessarily wise in a social setting to rate yourself in a non-objective way at all, whether you're bragging or trying to be modest.
Another thing I notice: people sometimes try to make extra clear that their work is horrible ( exaggerated), possibly with the intent of dodging the possibility that someone reviews it, notices it's bad, assumes you think it's good, and assumes you are inherently bad at it. It's as if the worse you rate something that is good, the better you assume it will make you look. While pointing out the flaws, and giving an objective analysis is probably always well received, hints of exaggeration, and nonobjective terms might be poorly received, belittling, or seam like false modesty, even if you are being genuinely honest ( maybe low self esteem or high standards ).
What got me thinking about this are situations like this: You're obviously fairly smart, and your friend knows that, and your friend happens to be really dumb. You are hanging out with your friend trying to figure out how to do your quantum physics homework, and having a hard time, and you start going on about how stupid and worthless you are. You don't mean to be insulting, but unaware to you, you may have hurt your friend, who happens to be ashamed of his lack of intelligence.
Basically I am thinking it's not necessarily wise in a social setting to rate yourself in a non-objective way at all, whether you're bragging or trying to be modest.
Another thing I notice: people sometimes try to make extra clear that their work is horrible ( exaggerated), possibly with the intent of dodging the possibility that someone reviews it, notices it's bad, assumes you think it's good, and assumes you are inherently bad at it. It's as if the worse you rate something that is good, the better you assume it will make you look. While pointing out the flaws, and giving an objective analysis is probably always well received, hints of exaggeration, and nonobjective terms might be poorly received, belittling, or seam like false modesty, even if you are being genuinely honest ( maybe low self esteem or high standards ).
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| and you start going on about how stupid and worthless you are. |
That is not modesty or being overcritical of yourself -- that is merely self-deprecation, a symptom of extremely low self-esteem. Again, it's a coping mechanism -- insulting yourself in anticipation of being judged negatively by others.
Unfortunately it almost always is met negatively by observing parties. One of my friends has a really bad problem where he gets in bouts with this and goes on about how he's always alone and nobody likes him -- when really he's fun to be around... except when he's acting like that... then it kind of sucks to be around him. So it sort of feeds on itself --- he's by himself because he's acting shitty... and he's acting shitty because he's by himself.
So yeah, if you have a friend that does this, that sucks. More for them then for you. It's a really hard subject to talk about directly with them, too. When your fear is being judged, having someone come up to you and talk to you about (ie: judge) your behavior is like a nightmare.
In my experience the best antidote for self deprecation is usually:
1) Be supportive, but not really too serious about it. Don't dwell on it or make it out to be a big deal, because that legitimizes their concerns.
2) Try to change the subject to something else.
On the other hand, if they're reaching out and actually looking for a serious discussion then you probably don't want to be dismissive. So it's tricky.
| Basically I am thinking it's not necessarily wise in a social setting to rate yourself in a non-objective way at all, whether you're bragging or trying to be modest. |
Probably good advice. Though I hate talking about myself in any setting, not just social settings. =P
| Another thing I notice: people sometimes try to make extra clear that their work is horrible ( exaggerated), possibly with the intent of dodging the possibility that someone reviews it, notices it's bad, assumes you think it's good, and assumes you are inherently bad at it. It's as if the worse you rate something that is good, the better you assume it will make you look. |
Yup.
The idea is to lower expectations so they can't be disappointed. I agree it's usually not a good idea, but I still find myself doing it. =P
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