How many professionals working in the field do *not* have a degree?
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99% of the jobs I see require a 4 year degree *or releated work experience*. Is there a lot people who don't have degrees? I'd assume there's a good amount seeing almost all jobs have that last part.
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A degree is like a gender; a social construct to a large scope. No one really needs one. After all, when you get the degree, what you leave with is knowledge, and the piece of paper is supposedly an award for it.
Is the degree useful after you graduated? No. It, itself, is a piece of paper, and I can print out 100s of them and award myself after I reach a certain level of competence in any task. The fact that the "formal institution" feels they can put the marker on what's okay or not okay to learn, and to what extent, is a major throw-back to human independence. If anyone wants to learn how to do something, learn how to do it until you can do it. Simple. Anything else, like "points" in school, is all a game system where the "best" earn more credits and graduates; however, we all know that graduates are not all equal, so the first step in logic tells us that the marker is not perfect and the "point of completion" to "graduation" is not so narrow and is variable.
They only "require" a degree because it's how society has come to work. Formality more often trumps lack of formality than the inverse. Everything you learn in school, to any degree, can be learned equivalently (or possibly faster, better, and truly at your own pace and control) outside of any institution.
I hate to say it, but the "hard knocks" can be just as smart and accomplished (whether or not society "allows" them to be or tries to stop them) or more so than a perfectly educated, high-tier yuppie.
Before education institutions, people still learned and applied themselves, didn't they? Of course they did. A structural learning environment is not what I stand against; current educational institutes and their curriculums, to put it shortly, are what I know is wrong.
Also, nobody should pay for education. The whole idea of "teaching" should either be done person-to-person (tutoring, possibly for money) or for free out of hobby or genuine interest in educating others and a desire to do so. The year of the "school teachers" needs to end and become extinct.
If anyone says you "need" to go to school to learn, the first thing I'd do is either avoid or educate them. I dropped out of high-school and have no debt, make more money than mostly all college graduates make right after graduation, and have over 20 income streams. Of course, I am not allowed to drive cars or be in certain public locations, but it's a small price to pay for true independence.
If you want my honest word, people should all learn for free, be given (or create) an efficient success tracker, and keep pressing forward until they reach competence. All "employers" should (and easily could) narrow down people based on knowledge and test them before hire anyways. So whether or not you attended a formal education institute is complete horse manure, as validating your capability of doing something can be entirely automated (as everything is these days) and if you suck, you probably won't get the job, just as if you showed up lying about a degree and were proven to be a chump.
The problem is the perceived and accepted "value" of formal education and a degree, and not so much the acceptance that people can learn without institute and should be given a chance to prove they're capable as well. Think of a pre-screening process that's automated. If someone showed up without a degree but passed the test, no one would care because they have the knowledge that someone is "supposed" to have with the education completion in the first place. The fact that smart, good people without formal education are still judged, but those who skated through schools (it happens more than some think) are immediately considered first-hand before anyone else shows that the employment system and society as a whole is bias and not efficient.
You know how many people run businesses or work for themselves and never even WENT to high school or high school level learning? PLENTY. Guess what? They are comfortable; quite plenty are at the very least.
Business is not all a giant monopoly corporation or someone sitting in an office ... business can mean sitting on your backside and getting people to buy stuff over the digital world, or doing work from home. People need to know the facts and realize the true options and not just dive into debt land with uncertainty for a fixed-outlook living. Everyone can and should try to work for themselves and learn to be somewhat independent at least.
Is the degree useful after you graduated? No. It, itself, is a piece of paper, and I can print out 100s of them and award myself after I reach a certain level of competence in any task. The fact that the "formal institution" feels they can put the marker on what's okay or not okay to learn, and to what extent, is a major throw-back to human independence. If anyone wants to learn how to do something, learn how to do it until you can do it. Simple. Anything else, like "points" in school, is all a game system where the "best" earn more credits and graduates; however, we all know that graduates are not all equal, so the first step in logic tells us that the marker is not perfect and the "point of completion" to "graduation" is not so narrow and is variable.
They only "require" a degree because it's how society has come to work. Formality more often trumps lack of formality than the inverse. Everything you learn in school, to any degree, can be learned equivalently (or possibly faster, better, and truly at your own pace and control) outside of any institution.
I hate to say it, but the "hard knocks" can be just as smart and accomplished (whether or not society "allows" them to be or tries to stop them) or more so than a perfectly educated, high-tier yuppie.
Before education institutions, people still learned and applied themselves, didn't they? Of course they did. A structural learning environment is not what I stand against; current educational institutes and their curriculums, to put it shortly, are what I know is wrong.
Also, nobody should pay for education. The whole idea of "teaching" should either be done person-to-person (tutoring, possibly for money) or for free out of hobby or genuine interest in educating others and a desire to do so. The year of the "school teachers" needs to end and become extinct.
If anyone says you "need" to go to school to learn, the first thing I'd do is either avoid or educate them. I dropped out of high-school and have no debt, make more money than mostly all college graduates make right after graduation, and have over 20 income streams. Of course, I am not allowed to drive cars or be in certain public locations, but it's a small price to pay for true independence.
If you want my honest word, people should all learn for free, be given (or create) an efficient success tracker, and keep pressing forward until they reach competence. All "employers" should (and easily could) narrow down people based on knowledge and test them before hire anyways. So whether or not you attended a formal education institute is complete horse manure, as validating your capability of doing something can be entirely automated (as everything is these days) and if you suck, you probably won't get the job, just as if you showed up lying about a degree and were proven to be a chump.
The problem is the perceived and accepted "value" of formal education and a degree, and not so much the acceptance that people can learn without institute and should be given a chance to prove they're capable as well. Think of a pre-screening process that's automated. If someone showed up without a degree but passed the test, no one would care because they have the knowledge that someone is "supposed" to have with the education completion in the first place. The fact that smart, good people without formal education are still judged, but those who skated through schools (it happens more than some think) are immediately considered first-hand before anyone else shows that the employment system and society as a whole is bias and not efficient.
You know how many people run businesses or work for themselves and never even WENT to high school or high school level learning? PLENTY. Guess what? They are comfortable; quite plenty are at the very least.
Business is not all a giant monopoly corporation or someone sitting in an office ... business can mean sitting on your backside and getting people to buy stuff over the digital world, or doing work from home. People need to know the facts and realize the true options and not just dive into debt land with uncertainty for a fixed-outlook living. Everyone can and should try to work for themselves and learn to be somewhat independent at least.
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| Is the degree useful after you graduated? No. It, itself, is a piece of paper (sic) |
No, a degree (is usually) useful. It's a piece of paper that, when granted by a respected institution, tells a potential employer that you do indeed know what they want you to know before hiring you.
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| After all, when you get the degree, what you leave with is knowledge, and the piece of paper is supposedly an award for it. |
The knowledge is important too do the job, the piece of paper in kind of handy to get to an interview.
You can learn the subject with self study but will you learn all you need to know? I know I learned things that I would not have by self study that turned out to be very useful.
| The fact that the "formal institution" feels they can put the marker on what's okay or not okay to learn, and to what extent, is a major throw-back to human independence. |
I would agree, but in the field of computer science, I'm not sure this is an issue so much as if you majored in history or something where the institution may have a motivation for indoctrination.
| Everything you learn in school, to any degree, can be learned equivalently (or possibly faster, better, and truly at your own pace and control) outside of any institution. |
This is true, but is it really relevant what is possible? For employers it comes down to statistics. They have a limited amount of manpower in terms of conducting intensive interviews. They have to restrict who they let in the door for the interview. They probably find that college graduates from respected institutions are more likely to be better for the job than someone with no formal education. If you have no education, you better have some big accomplishment or prior experience to back you up. What else can you expect.
Before education institutions, people still learned and applied themselves, didn't they? Of course they did. A structural learning environment is not what I stand against; current educational institutes and their curriculums, to put it shortly, are what I know is wrong. |
Of course, but there have been educational institutions for thousands of years, as far back as documented history goes. And it has always been the case that mathematical, scientific and technological advances have centered around educational institutions.
| Also, nobody should pay for education. The whole idea of "teaching" should either be done person-to-person (tutoring, possibly for money) or for free out of hobby or genuine interest in educating others and a desire to do so. The year of the "school teachers" needs to end and become extinct. |
If we did away with educational institutions, and relied on people teaching each other for fun, we would no doubt become massively less educated than we are now. I don't think the results would be beneficial. Besides, it would be pretty rare that your neighbors are both nice and happen to be experts at whatever subject you want to be taught.
Of course you could learn online, but this is a new phenomena. Just because you can find a ton of information online now day's, and that for a whole 20 or so years, doesn't mean we should just dismantle our schools and burn all of our books.
Besides, what is the difference between a school teacher, and a professional tutor? Most people can't afford to hire personal tutors. Basically what you are advocating against is public education, and it follows that you are implicitly advocating that only rich people are given a chance to get a non-self taught education.
I dropped out of high-school and have no debt, make more money than mostly all college graduates make right after graduation, and have over 20 income streams. Of course, I am not allowed to drive cars or be in certain public locations, but it's a small price to pay for true independence. |
That's good for you, but you are not normal. On average, high school dropouts are in the poverty zone.
It they won't let you get a drivers license because you don't have a high school diploma, why don't you just take the GED? And I don't see how dropping out of high school gives you some lifelong feeling of true independence. It sounds like you are rationalizing. Just get your diploma already.
validating your capability of doing something can be entirely automated |
I'm not so sure this is true. I would not feel comfortable automating the hiring process if I were an employer. The system could easily be cheated, and it's hard to imagine some sort of test could be effective anyways. Testing is a notoriously flawed way of measuring people's skills, and besides there is no one size fits all set of skills to test for. Each job has it's specific and diverse requirements from reliability, dependability, technical proficiency at certain things, creativity, to communication skills and so on. This is besides the fact that test taking in and of itself is the main skill you would be testing. It's easy for a lot of people to do some memorizing before a test and do well.
More importantly, a test cannot say anything about how reliable you would be. And it cannot replace a letter of recommendation. Spending years making your way through a gauntlet of difficult courses and succeeding says something about you that you cannot measure with a test. And having had a glimpse at what it takes to get a PHD, I can say without a doubt that having a piece of paper saying you have one of those is definitely no joke.
It sounds like you would like some kind of government mandated equal opportunity system put in place to force businesses to give everyone an equal shot a the job independent of formal qualifications.
You know how many people run businesses or work for themselves and never even WENT to high school or high school level learning? PLENTY. Guess what? They are comfortable; quite plenty are at the very least. |
You know what is a more useful fact? Most of them don't make a lot of money or have successful businesses. Second, everybody can't be running a business getting people to buy stuff on line and it isn't necessarily everyone's dream anyways. Some people might rather be scientists or engineers.
All of this said, it seams that it is starting to become the case that there is a rise in the number of alternate ways of proving yourself and or becoming educated. For example you have Udacity and other similar reputable online education programs emerging with a trend towards offering documentation proving your accomplishments. There is an online-masters program at Georgia Tech ( a top school in computer science ) which is quite cheap and supposedly you get the same sheet of paper that people who went in person get. I think more top schools will start doing this soon. Also there are these so called boot camps, not sure how good they are.
And in some places, you can get financial aid from the government. I know this isn't the case in most areas of the world, but in the US, if you cannot afford to go to college, they will pay your way. A lot of the people I know are getting enough financial aid to pay for both tuition and living costs. Some of the problems colleges are facing is that people are going just to get the money. They are literally living off of going to school.
I remember looking browsing Cal Tech's website, and reading that on average it is one of the cheapest schools in the nation for their students. Tuition is $50,000, but most of the students pay nothing because of financial aid, grants and scholarships.
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htirwin basically summed up most of what I wanted to say, so I won't go into a long post or anything. But I did want to touch on one segment of you post. Which is basically the jist of his/her post (You can succeed without any education).
While like you say a lot of people run successful businesses without any or very little formal education, though just because this is true doesn't mean that it is by any means the norm. In fact like htirwin touched on most are barely making ends meat. So while there is a chance that you could be successful without formal learning, I don't see why you would limit that chance just because a small portion has been successful without formal learning.
It is basically like saying "Yes it is true that 90% of high school dropouts are in poverty (Totally made up number btw), but those other 10% are actually quite successful without going to school! So who needs schooling anyways you can still succeed!"
And as a final note just because there is people running successful businesses without diplomas that doesn't mean that it was anywhere near easy for them to do so. Creating and running your own business is amazingly hard work to do and to be honest most people don't have what it takes to do so. There is this great quote I have always liked about entrepreneurship which is this.
"Entrepreneurship is living a few years of your life like most people won’t, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can’t."
To sum it up, yes you can succeed in anything without any education I am not trying to disput that. But by not getting any education all you are doing is limiting your chances at success.
Anyways as for the OP I would say while there is some in the field that don't have any degrees and still have comfortable jobs that they love, they are definitely in the minority. This is especially true in this day and age where almost everything requires at least a 4 year degree to be considered.
| You know how many people run businesses or work for themselves and never even WENT to high school or high school level learning? PLENTY. Guess what? They are comfortable; quite plenty are at the very least. |
While like you say a lot of people run successful businesses without any or very little formal education, though just because this is true doesn't mean that it is by any means the norm. In fact like htirwin touched on most are barely making ends meat. So while there is a chance that you could be successful without formal learning, I don't see why you would limit that chance just because a small portion has been successful without formal learning.
It is basically like saying "Yes it is true that 90% of high school dropouts are in poverty (Totally made up number btw), but those other 10% are actually quite successful without going to school! So who needs schooling anyways you can still succeed!"
And as a final note just because there is people running successful businesses without diplomas that doesn't mean that it was anywhere near easy for them to do so. Creating and running your own business is amazingly hard work to do and to be honest most people don't have what it takes to do so. There is this great quote I have always liked about entrepreneurship which is this.
"Entrepreneurship is living a few years of your life like most people won’t, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can’t."
To sum it up, yes you can succeed in anything without any education I am not trying to disput that. But by not getting any education all you are doing is limiting your chances at success.
Anyways as for the OP I would say while there is some in the field that don't have any degrees and still have comfortable jobs that they love, they are definitely in the minority. This is especially true in this day and age where almost everything requires at least a 4 year degree to be considered.
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| This is true, but is it really relevant what is possible? For employers it comes down to statistics. They have a limited amount of manpower in terms of conducting intensive interviews. They have to restrict who they let in the door for the interview. They probably find that college graduates from respected institutions are more likely to be better for the job than someone with no formal education. If you have no education, you better have some big accomplishment or prior experience to back you up. What else can you expect. |
What is possible opens a whole new world compared to what you think you are stuck or limited with. Of course it comes down to statistics and there's always limitations in "manpower," but you don't seem to realize that 90% of the pre-screening process or greater for employment can be automated. You are aware that employers can video chat with VOIP, live streaming, Google Hangouts, Skype, and many other ways, correct? There's really no requirement these days to how much more easier and convenient interviewing face-to-face can be. Also, I don't know about you, but very many people make a good loving working online on sites such as eLance, oDesk, Mechanical Turk, etc. The interesting part is that, while many of the people who do the "bigger" work on there have degrees, convincing the other person and showing them that you're capable of (whatever job) the task at hand, and showing prior experience, seems to get the job anyways. If you know what you're doing and can show it, you seem to get work and pay anyways, regardless of having completed a degree. I could spell this out very much more in details, and with very many real-world examples, ideologies, systems, and abilities to learn beside just by "Googling" or paying large amounts of money to a possible tutor, but I am striving to make this less like a reference guide and more like an answer.
| Of course, but there have been educational institutions for thousands of years, as far back as documented history goes. And it has always been the case that mathematical, scientific and technological advances have centered around educational institutions. |
You said it ... thousands of years ago. Thousands of years ago people only spoke face-to-face; now I can talk to a person in China in less than three seconds and see their face from on a flying machine as they see mine. Do you not get what I'm saying yet? Advancement in society, technology, culture, and many other details within these areas reduces the need for everything to be inconveniently face-to-face in person. If business meetings work with video telephony streams, and even doctors and medical professionals will offer services this way too, what's so strange about an interview? In fact, and with these means, an employer can interview multiple people each day without having to travel, use gas, spend money, etc. With a creative app, I bet the hiring process could be narrowed down to 15-30 minute channels in successive segments where employers and employee-potentials could do video telephonic chats and save each other many resources, also while getting the task done in any inconvenient location, arrangement or such.
| If we did away with educational institutions, and relied on people teaching each other for fun, we would no doubt become massively less educated than we are now. |
You are looking shallowly at my intended-to-be-specific viewpoint. My point is, people go to educational institutions all the time and they learn with others there. The difference in my examples, however, would be the lack of need for millions of dollars, extra inconveniences, and federal mandates, if applicable. Take away the money and people can still learn; keep the money and people learn while the government and/or businesses profit. I don't necessarily stand against that, but what you fail to see is successful movement from the traditional education and learning institution infrastructure to a newer world of learning and self-application that needs much less resources, but fuels the same knowledge. The way they teach in colleges is not all the same way, but by that right there we can assume that ANY way one can learn would be different from another at another time and with other means. Basically, what's important is the "learning system" more so than the "learning location." There are many ways to replace human teachers anyways (holographic video telephony teachers, programmable learning video/textual/audio segment sessions, and even free workshops for hands-on learning that learners themselves could populate and expand to help free learning). Remember that learning, in at least one definition, is passing on information to others; and if that information can be passed on and instilled in another via means requiring no university building or mega finances, it certainly can't hurt as much, and would be way more convenient and rewarding, assuming it is similar to the learning you'd get from being in an actual learning institution or university, college, tech-school, etc.
| Of course you could learn online, but this is a new phenomena. Just because you can find a ton of information online now day's, and that for a whole 20 or so years, doesn't mean we should just dismantle our schools and burn all of our books. |
Change like that rarely happens overnight. People still use optical disks and mediums despite them being 100% unnecessary for any means these days. Like floppy disks, they will soon be referred to as "dinosaur stuff." Some day we may refer to educational institutes as dinosaur stuff too; that day may be sooner than you'd think. In any case, 20 years is not enough; give it another 20 or so and let's see how different things may be then ... among the majorities. Few now understand what I'm saying if you really took the time to look into this. It won't hurt to take some notes. Hell, I even have some drafts of ebooks written about all of this stuff.
| Most people can't afford to hire personal tutors. |
Most people don't need to, and eventually no one will need another person to teach them anything when mind uploading succeeds, if ever (I wish to contribute theories regarding the possibility one day, but I am not smart enough to butt heads with most of the experts yet).
That's good for you, but you are not normal. |
I have heard that from plenty of people over the years.
| It they won't let you get a drivers license because you don't have a high school diploma[...] |
I really don't care in the grand scheme of things. Will me driving a car make the world change? I could give a damn about having the legal privilege. Besides, I'd rather fly airships and flying machines, and I need no driver's license to do that.
| I'm not so sure this is true. I would not feel comfortable automating the hiring process if I were an employer. |
How many people do you think felt the same way you did upon writing that above whenever there was a new dynamic introduced to the world?
| More importantly, a test cannot say anything about how reliable you would be. |
Video telephony.
| Second, everybody can't be running a business getting people to buy stuff on line and it isn't necessarily everyone's dream anyways. |
You seem unaware of how multifaceted business can be; and business doesn't always have to involve selling something to another, unless you consider your time as a commodity or something that's equivalent to a sale.
Anyways, I am writing this all while in the middle of several other tasks, so don't expect the most insightful or elegance of writing from me at this time.
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Just checking in, professional developer, no degree :)
My 9 years of experience helped, but honestly the biggest asset you have as a developer is your portfolio! Make some cool stuff = get hired.
My 9 years of experience helped, but honestly the biggest asset you have as a developer is your portfolio! Make some cool stuff = get hired.
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Professional developer here with no Computer Science degree. Overall I regret it and not just for the fact that I have to learn a lot on my own.
I don't have the range of personal technical contacts that I can draw upon for a project or if I am stuck on a problem like people who have com.sci. degrees have. Many people who have been working in the field for a while knows someone they can 911 call if they are stuck in a rut.
Or, maybe you want to do a startup and you need more bright minds. Having a close technical friend is great in such a situation as well.
@ultifinitus I agree! Open source projects are a great way to get started if you need experience. I would just get on your favorite project's bug list and start hacking away. From there do a few open source projects on your own based on ideas you had.
The important thing is to FINISH what you started.
I don't have the range of personal technical contacts that I can draw upon for a project or if I am stuck on a problem like people who have com.sci. degrees have. Many people who have been working in the field for a while knows someone they can 911 call if they are stuck in a rut.
Or, maybe you want to do a startup and you need more bright minds. Having a close technical friend is great in such a situation as well.
@ultifinitus I agree! Open source projects are a great way to get started if you need experience. I would just get on your favorite project's bug list and start hacking away. From there do a few open source projects on your own based on ideas you had.
The important thing is to FINISH what you started.
Missing the point. *sigh*
When you are getting your degree you are also building relationships as well. Class projects, etc.
Also, as mentioned, the knowledge is extremely important as well.
When you are getting your degree you are also building relationships as well. Class projects, etc.
Also, as mentioned, the knowledge is extremely important as well.
I think one of the really important things is to try and buddy up with your lecturers. One of mine seems to have taken a shine to me because he teaches the Haskell class and I'm pretty good at it (cheating - I learned the basics of Haskell before). He's looking into getting funding for a joint project with some engineering students who are building a race car. He wants us to program the automotive software in Haskell.
Extracurricular projects like that look great on a CV (implying team-working skills, self-motivation and above-average ability), not to mention the benefits of winning favour with someone who used to work in the software industry and can most likely has friends in high places outside of academia who want to hear about their best professor-friend's favourite students.
For people who, like me, tend towards academia purism (I hate vocational modules and I care little for career success: I'm studying computer science because I love it), the idea of buddying up with your professors to take advantage of their connections probably sounds distasteful but whether you do it or not, you're in the game. The question isn't whether you're playing, it's whether you're playing to win. This is what the degree is really about. It's a three-year-long opportunity to network. I didn't like it at first, but I'm beginning to see it. I just hope "It's who you know" is the right cliché and I don't have to blow anyone.
Extracurricular projects like that look great on a CV (implying team-working skills, self-motivation and above-average ability), not to mention the benefits of winning favour with someone who used to work in the software industry and can most likely has friends in high places outside of academia who want to hear about their best professor-friend's favourite students.
For people who, like me, tend towards academia purism (I hate vocational modules and I care little for career success: I'm studying computer science because I love it), the idea of buddying up with your professors to take advantage of their connections probably sounds distasteful but whether you do it or not, you're in the game. The question isn't whether you're playing, it's whether you're playing to win. This is what the degree is really about. It's a three-year-long opportunity to network. I didn't like it at first, but I'm beginning to see it. I just hope "It's who you know" is the right cliché and I don't have to blow anyone.
Yes, plenty of people working as a programmer don't have degrees.
Do I think you should get one? Yes, for this reason:
Programmer + degree > Similarly skilled programmer without
Plus, as already mentioned, the connections you'll make are priceless, and chances are you'll learn something. College can't hurt you, so why not?
Do I think you should get one? Yes, for this reason:
Programmer + degree > Similarly skilled programmer without
Plus, as already mentioned, the connections you'll make are priceless, and chances are you'll learn something. College can't hurt you, so why not?
My dad has 30 years of experience in his field. He doesn't have a degree. Because of this, as well as some corporate politics, he doesn't get paid half what the average wage for a person in his position is. And if it weren't for his extreme business savvy and linguistic ability (being able to run a conversation and be really good at selling your self in a conversation) he would not have the job he has.
He will always wish he had the opportunity to finish his degree. And not a day goes by does he remind me I that I still have time to go back and finish mine.
He will always wish he had the opportunity to finish his degree. And not a day goes by does he remind me I that I still have time to go back and finish mine.
closed account (3hM2Nwbp)
| Avil ius wrote: |
|---|
| College can't hurt you, so why not? |
So the loan(s) that generally take 15 - 30 years to repay don't count?
The professional connections and piece of paper are pretty much the only reasons to attend college in the CS pathway*. The "knowledge" that is taught is laughable to say the least. The 5 - 10 years after graduation (working in the real world) is when the real, useful knowledge comes.
* In the US, I should specify. Maybe the super expensive private colleges are different, but state schools are a complete joke.
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| So the loan(s) that generally take 15 - 30 years to repay don't count? |
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There's a lot of them that are income based. I didn't qualify for any of them because, on paper, my dad makes a lot more money than he actually does.
closed account (3hM2Nwbp)
I didn't qualify for anything because I was employed full time before, during, and after I obtained my first degree. The system is geared toward giving lazy bums yet another free ride.
Having almost financially recovered from that huge mistake, I find myself compelled to go back and make it again because of how $%^#$'ed up the hiring system is with its various clicks and scenes.
Having almost financially recovered from that huge mistake, I find myself compelled to go back and make it again because of how $%^#$'ed up the hiring system is with its various clicks and scenes.
I don't really care if people have a degree or not can we at least be realistic?
Most colleges in the United States do not teach something that you can't learn from experience or a book outside of the college, given the nature of how knowledge tends to spread in general. The only reason to get a degree is for the politics, not for the knowledge. Some universities do hold top of the field instructors that you can learn uniquely from... but these are well out of the pay range of 95% of the citizens in the US, regardless of grants and loans.
Who in their right mind would make themselves that financially destitute without a rich backer to fund your schooling? Even with a top of the line job right out of college, you would have to hold that job for several years, fear any job changes as they cause instability and sometimes causes a job loss due to corporate politics, fear any financial investments, etc.
Jobs aren't so stable that the ideal situation is going to happen for everyone who goes to get a $50G+ degree. I would wager that it doesn't for the majority. Personal friends and experience would agree. When you start selling furniture and living with your friends or mother because you can't make the next loan payment, tell me it was worth it.
Most colleges in the United States do not teach something that you can't learn from experience or a book outside of the college, given the nature of how knowledge tends to spread in general. The only reason to get a degree is for the politics, not for the knowledge. Some universities do hold top of the field instructors that you can learn uniquely from... but these are well out of the pay range of 95% of the citizens in the US, regardless of grants and loans.
Who in their right mind would make themselves that financially destitute without a rich backer to fund your schooling? Even with a top of the line job right out of college, you would have to hold that job for several years, fear any job changes as they cause instability and sometimes causes a job loss due to corporate politics, fear any financial investments, etc.
Jobs aren't so stable that the ideal situation is going to happen for everyone who goes to get a $50G+ degree. I would wager that it doesn't for the majority. Personal friends and experience would agree. When you start selling furniture and living with your friends or mother because you can't make the next loan payment, tell me it was worth it.
I think the real issue at hand is that college tuition in the US has risen something like 1300% over that of inflation over the last 40 years. Don't quote me on that statistic. Vague memory of a study and I didn't google to confirm.
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