Computing Graduates who can't write code
I've been a software engineer for more years than I care to remember, and before that I was a hardware engineer. A post in one of the forums http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/general/1762/ has raised a subject that is one of my pet hates. I have noticed, particularly recently that more and more Universities are launching graduates into the software industry without any programming abilities. I recently interviewed one candidate who had done 6 weeks programming on a four year computing degree!! I recently spoke with a University Professor about the content of the degrees and I was told that if they put the programming content of their degrees up, nobody wants to do the course! On top of that, having worked in and with numerous companies around the UK some of the code being written by supposed professionals is woeful. There seems to usually be one or two genuine experts out of every twenty or so who write code for a living, that seem to have to prop up the rest. Is this just me being in the wrong place are are these trends more widespread?
I have likewise been a software engineer for many years, and have to agree that there appear to be a large number of people claiming abilities they just don't have.
I am currently fortunate to be working for a small company which is run by people who understand software engineering, and make sure they only hire others who do (or are graduates with the right aptitude and attitude to learn).
In previous companies a major source of problems has to fall with managers (and directors) who not only do not understand the difficulties, but are unwilling to accept that others 'below' them might know more then them.
This leads to 'professionals' who are forced to skip requirements, design, testing, etc in order to satisfy a 'just get it the code done' attitude - if you're working in that sort of environment how can you be expected to learn to do the job properly?
Shortcuts become the norm, which leads to sloppy code, which leads to 'hacked' updates, etc.
All of which is, of course, off topic regarding graduates who can't code, but does fit with bemoaning the poor state of software engineering as a 'profession'
I am currently fortunate to be working for a small company which is run by people who understand software engineering, and make sure they only hire others who do (or are graduates with the right aptitude and attitude to learn).
In previous companies a major source of problems has to fall with managers (and directors) who not only do not understand the difficulties, but are unwilling to accept that others 'below' them might know more then them.
This leads to 'professionals' who are forced to skip requirements, design, testing, etc in order to satisfy a 'just get it the code done' attitude - if you're working in that sort of environment how can you be expected to learn to do the job properly?
Shortcuts become the norm, which leads to sloppy code, which leads to 'hacked' updates, etc.
All of which is, of course, off topic regarding graduates who can't code, but does fit with bemoaning the poor state of software engineering as a 'profession'
Yep, and that is another problem that I have seen too much of; management pressure born from ignorance and arrogance. That and a steadfast refusal to train and encourage good practice. I'm also in a good company but I have to work with those companies that fall short of the mark. Knowing what some of that poor code is part of is quite worrying....for example, there are a couple of makes of car I would never buy.
On a more positive note, it's refreshing to see posts in these forums from people genuinely trying to improve their technique and understanding.
On a more positive note, it's refreshing to see posts in these forums from people genuinely trying to improve their technique and understanding.
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I'm a student at the University of Tromsø, Norway. I'm currently at the end of the fourth year of a five year program.
I have to say that there's no problem with practical programming experience here. A student typically takes two computer science subjects each semester (and one from another field like mathematics). In each of these courses, the student must typically hand in three mandatory programming assignments. A typical hand-in consists of everything from a few hundred to several thousands lines of code, in addition to a 4-6 pages report about how the problems were solved.
In my studies I have handed in projects in several programming languages, including assembly, C, C++, Java, Python and Ruby.
I'm not saying that everything is great at this university. There should have been a lot more subjects to choose from. But I don't think that graduates have too little programming experience.
I have to say that there's no problem with practical programming experience here. A student typically takes two computer science subjects each semester (and one from another field like mathematics). In each of these courses, the student must typically hand in three mandatory programming assignments. A typical hand-in consists of everything from a few hundred to several thousands lines of code, in addition to a 4-6 pages report about how the problems were solved.
In my studies I have handed in projects in several programming languages, including assembly, C, C++, Java, Python and Ruby.
I'm not saying that everything is great at this university. There should have been a lot more subjects to choose from. But I don't think that graduates have too little programming experience.
I agree complete bnbertha. Working as a software developer (trained as such) in a science research company we get alot of people who've done 1-2hrs coding trying to apply for J2EE developer roles. None of them even remotely capable of developing the applications requested.
For my part, I am going to no longer post answers to questions that request help for homework that the author has not at least made their OWN decent attempt at first.
For my part, I am going to no longer post answers to questions that request help for homework that the author has not at least made their OWN decent attempt at first.
The ones that peeve me are when someone asks "please do my homework and mail it to zuzuzu1222@urstupid.com", and I (kindly, methinks) post saying give it a try yourself and I'll help, and the next day someone posts an answer for them (usually a really bad one).
You all seem to know what you are doing, so its no surprise that professors can spot plagiarism from miles away. What gets me is how few seem to care enough to fail or expel students who do it.
I attended Rutgers (in New Jersey, USA) and one of the newer Associate Professors there gives a very rigorous (but basic) course on functional programming, and most students hate her for it.
Most people just don't get that we're not programming the computer... we're programming our own heads.
OK, last story. I was doing some consulting for a local company, and I had to work with some self-made guy for more than two years on a very simple data transformation program that he just couldn't make work.
Now don't get me wrong. Most of the stuff I know I picked up myself... But I could have written that program in two months. Unfortunately (for me) the CEO was wound around that guy's finger... and he wouldn't let me even try (despite successful preliminaries). Eventually I just said bye. (Finally the company gave him up cause none of his software was stable.)
But the moral of my story is that knowing how to schmooze seems more important than actually knowing how to program... What a waste.
I suppose that's why I'm just a hobbyist. I simply cannot stand indifferent incompetence and politicking.
Course, on the bright side I get to post here with all you helpful folks, and chew ears off now and then... :-)
You all seem to know what you are doing, so its no surprise that professors can spot plagiarism from miles away. What gets me is how few seem to care enough to fail or expel students who do it.
I attended Rutgers (in New Jersey, USA) and one of the newer Associate Professors there gives a very rigorous (but basic) course on functional programming, and most students hate her for it.
Most people just don't get that we're not programming the computer... we're programming our own heads.
OK, last story. I was doing some consulting for a local company, and I had to work with some self-made guy for more than two years on a very simple data transformation program that he just couldn't make work.
Now don't get me wrong. Most of the stuff I know I picked up myself... But I could have written that program in two months. Unfortunately (for me) the CEO was wound around that guy's finger... and he wouldn't let me even try (despite successful preliminaries). Eventually I just said bye. (Finally the company gave him up cause none of his software was stable.)
But the moral of my story is that knowing how to schmooze seems more important than actually knowing how to program... What a waste.
I suppose that's why I'm just a hobbyist. I simply cannot stand indifferent incompetence and politicking.
Course, on the bright side I get to post here with all you helpful folks, and chew ears off now and then... :-)
This is a problem which stems from the education system in the uk. I have several friends who work in the education as teachers and university lecturers and they all say the same thing. In the UK there are government targets for student pass rates. if these targets are not met funding is reduced. So the teachers are compelled to teach thier students to pass exams, they are not teaching the subject as such. So we get engineers who know how to pass a particular exam but do not have an in depth knowlege of the subject the have "studied"
@Duoas
A sad, but highly accurate description of the software development industry as a whole.
@Laurie1: That seems illogical to me, if people are not passing. Then it'd make sense to increase the funding so they can provide better teaching facilities to ensure a higher pass rate. Or to increase the bar for people they accept so less people who are not capable of passing are allowed into the course.
| But the moral of my story is that knowing how to schmooze seems more important than actually knowing how to program... What a waste. |
A sad, but highly accurate description of the software development industry as a whole.
@Laurie1: That seems illogical to me, if people are not passing. Then it'd make sense to increase the funding so they can provide better teaching facilities to ensure a higher pass rate. Or to increase the bar for people they accept so less people who are not capable of passing are allowed into the course.
The state of the educational system outside the USA isn't all that great either. The UK has been struggling for years.
Unfortunately, brits already pay very high taxes --I don't really think they could afford more. There just isn't any money to throw at the problem.
More unfortunately, educational problems are much deeper than funding or NCLB or other simplistic thinking. There needs to be a fundamental change in the way education is administered and reparted before things can get significantly better.
If you want to read up on it some more, you might want to google around the Jeffersonian Educational Philosophy (which is not uniquely American [edit]well, it is, but it is largely composed of pre-American ideals...[/edit]) and James Bryant Conant, and then Horace Mann and John Dewey.
Here in the USA, at least, we're still stuck with Conant's arrogance. Most of the rest of the world I think is still stuck with some combination of the old pre-Jeffersonian ideals (drawn on French and English "renaissance" ideals) and local governmental meddling.
Alas.
Unfortunately, brits already pay very high taxes --I don't really think they could afford more. There just isn't any money to throw at the problem.
More unfortunately, educational problems are much deeper than funding or NCLB or other simplistic thinking. There needs to be a fundamental change in the way education is administered and reparted before things can get significantly better.
If you want to read up on it some more, you might want to google around the Jeffersonian Educational Philosophy (which is not uniquely American [edit]well, it is, but it is largely composed of pre-American ideals...[/edit]) and James Bryant Conant, and then Horace Mann and John Dewey.
Here in the USA, at least, we're still stuck with Conant's arrogance. Most of the rest of the world I think is still stuck with some combination of the old pre-Jeffersonian ideals (drawn on French and English "renaissance" ideals) and local governmental meddling.
Alas.
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Unfortunately Laurie1's comments are spot on. Here in the UK, the engineering intake to Universities is falling. Everyone wants to do 'easier' degrees. There is a very obvious pecking order of which ones are best, no doubt true every where. So the lower league UK universities are fighting for the 'scraps', both in terms of funds and students. Everything here in education is about targets and league tables, even in our primary schools (up to age 11). The kids sit tests and the test are compiled into league tables and published in the national press. The schools with the highest results at the top etc. It has an large impact on house prices here as well. more expensive close to 'top' schools. so, to get higher up the league, the universities have to make their courses more 'passable'. Yes it is crap, no, we don't like it. The whole system needs sorting out, but its not going to happen any time soon :/
To move even further off topic, the league-table linked measure of success also fails to allow for schools which have an 'under-achiveing' intake (due to social depravation in the area, high proportion of special needs, etc) but are able to produce good results with those kids - they take an intake which is on say 10%, turn it into a group achiving 30%, and are judged to have failed...
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