How are people actually like this?
I'm talking about the very very poor use of the English language in posts by many, many people.
Example: http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/85045/
How does this even happen? I don't understand how so many people on such a consistent basis show no knowledge of anything. Even if they don't speak English as their native language, you'd at least expect them not to put ten commas in a row like they accidentally held down the key for too long. And if they don't know how to effectively use a keyboard, how and why are they trying to learn C++?
I'm very confused here and I don't want to offend people, but this really seems overwhelming.
Example: http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/85045/
How does this even happen? I don't understand how so many people on such a consistent basis show no knowledge of anything. Even if they don't speak English as their native language, you'd at least expect them not to put ten commas in a row like they accidentally held down the key for too long. And if they don't know how to effectively use a keyboard, how and why are they trying to learn C++?
I'm very confused here and I don't want to offend people, but this really seems overwhelming.
I don't know. The best part is that many of these people actually are native english speakers.
From what I understand, some languages (people?) will use ',' sort of how in English people will use "..." to create pauses. Also, in some languages the , is just used for a pause and has no real rules on where it can be placed, unlike in English.
Like this:
Like this:
| Wikipedia wrote: |
|---|
| Chinese punctuation normally uses '，' (U+FF0C FULLWIDTH COMMA) but has the "enumeration comma" '、' (simplified Chinese: 顿号; traditional Chinese: 頓號; pinyin: dùnhào; literally "pause mark", U+3001 IDEOGRAPHIC COMMA) for lists. The comma is used to join together clauses that deal with a certain topic or line of thinking. As such, what would appear to an English speaker to be a comma splice is very commonly seen in Chinese writing. Often, the entirety of a long paragraph can consist of clauses joined by commas, with the sole period coming only at the end. Unlike in English, a comma is allowed between a subject and its predicate. |
| I'm very confused here and I don't want to offend people, but this really seems overwhelming. |
It must also be overwhelming for new people to get posts like:
Incorrect:max = b, min = a;Correct:
|
when the two are equivalent. Stylistic advice usually isn't given in terms of correctness.
@cire
That's an odd quirk of the language. No where have I ever seen assignment used like that. Just discovering that it's possible myself, so i suppose i can understand why someone would think
@OP, it's very possible he doesn't speak English as a first language. What should be overwhelming is obvious lack of effort by the OP to solve his/her problem. Especially for syntax errors like missing semicolons or misplaced brackets when you've pointed out one of several identical errors and they fix the one that you pointed out but neglect to generalize that knowledge to the rest of their code; then they re-post their code with one error fixed and ask what they're still doing wrong. That is what frustrates me.
That's an odd quirk of the language. No where have I ever seen assignment used like that. Just discovering that it's possible myself, so i suppose i can understand why someone would think
max = b, min = a; would be incorrect. @OP, it's very possible he doesn't speak English as a first language. What should be overwhelming is obvious lack of effort by the OP to solve his/her problem. Especially for syntax errors like missing semicolons or misplaced brackets when you've pointed out one of several identical errors and they fix the one that you pointed out but neglect to generalize that knowledge to the rest of their code; then they re-post their code with one error fixed and ask what they're still doing wrong. That is what frustrates me.
English is utterly bewildering to many foreign language speakers. Those of us who are a native indo-european language speaker have a much easier time than those who are not.
To top that, part of the difficulty in mastering a language is not in just strict syntax, but in the additional stylistic conventions that differ. Simply put, we think about how thoughts are annotated in entirely different ways.
Someone in, for example, Vietnam, who may have studied basic English in grade school, might be able to compose a very simple posting with what we consider to have a weird structure missing too much information.
On top of that, you have to consider the "coolness" factor of writing in a specific way -- and the way foreign cool is perceived is also very stilted due to local media.
Poor OP is doomed before he started, and he didn't know it.
The other thing to keep in mind is that cplusplus.com is one of the top-rated C++ sites in the world.
http://www.statscrop.com/www/cplusplus.com
We can expect some traffic from those struggling with more than one language.
@Thumper
Good to see you around! :O)
To top that, part of the difficulty in mastering a language is not in just strict syntax, but in the additional stylistic conventions that differ. Simply put, we think about how thoughts are annotated in entirely different ways.
Someone in, for example, Vietnam, who may have studied basic English in grade school, might be able to compose a very simple posting with what we consider to have a weird structure missing too much information.
On top of that, you have to consider the "coolness" factor of writing in a specific way -- and the way foreign cool is perceived is also very stilted due to local media.
Poor OP is doomed before he started, and he didn't know it.
The other thing to keep in mind is that cplusplus.com is one of the top-rated C++ sites in the world.
http://www.statscrop.com/www/cplusplus.com
We can expect some traffic from those struggling with more than one language.
@Thumper
Good to see you around! :O)
I can understand everyone's scenario except hanst99's which I see all to often. It's clear that someone is a native English speaker but it is also clear that they really put no effort into their writing, and it boggles my mind because when you're a native speaker who uses the internet all the time you would think you understand how to write a sentence.
The topic I linked to in the my OP is probably someone who isn't a native English speaker, but I pointed it out because sometimes I actually DO see that from my friends who are native English speakers...
The topic I linked to in the my OP is probably someone who isn't a native English speaker, but I pointed it out because sometimes I actually DO see that from my friends who are native English speakers...
you have also got to take into account the scenario in which you are writing, by which i mean i am typing as i am thinking there is no first or second draft, i didnt plan anything i was going to say im just got typing my answer to explain my point.
Then we have a small box and so some people feel that breaking stuff up into small bites, is easier to digest and lots of other unnatural feeling things, for me the way i communicate here has to be as i think so i feel like typing dialect or general style of talking (im making an effort to do things properly as not to anger the pedants)
i would have thought english wouldnt be a big deal 'cos code has to be accurate so speech dont innit.
Besides what do you mean by native speaker? because the american language is turning into some bastardized cat torturing cacon, plus the stinking spell checker is american.
(i dont use capitals to show dissent and poor patriotism i also wish there was a 'spits' punctuation )
Then we have a small box and so some people feel that breaking stuff up into small bites, is easier to digest and lots of other unnatural feeling things, for me the way i communicate here has to be as i think so i feel like typing dialect or general style of talking (im making an effort to do things properly as not to anger the pedants)
i would have thought english wouldnt be a big deal 'cos code has to be accurate so speech dont innit.
Besides what do you mean by native speaker? because the american language is turning into some bastardized cat torturing cacon, plus the stinking spell checker is american.
(i dont use capitals to show dissent and poor patriotism i also wish there was a 'spits' punctuation )
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English is a bewildering language. And I'm just now beginning to realize that. I was studying for the first English comp test i took in college, and clearly remember being like "WHO THE F*** CAME UP WITH THIS?" Lay is past tense for lie, but is also it's own word which has the past tense of laid. Seriously, da fuq?
@L B, i see your point. I can't resist playing devils advocate. :P
@Duoas
Heyy! Glad to see some familiar faces.. Or.. Text.. Haha!
@L B, i see your point. I can't resist playing devils advocate. :P
@Duoas
Heyy! Glad to see some familiar faces.. Or.. Text.. Haha!
| devonrevenge wrote: |
|---|
| because the american language is turning into some bastardized cat torturing cacon, plus the stinking spell checker is american. (i dont use capitals to show dissent and poor patriotism i also wish there was a 'spits' punctuation ) |
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devon is just completely anti-American, and has already stated several times that he wishes the U.S. to become a colony of the U.K. once again....
On another note, HOLY CRAP! Did anyone look at the stats for this website?
WOW, I had no idea this site was so large. 32,000 visitors daily!
On another note, HOLY CRAP! Did anyone look at the stats for this website?
This site is worth $1,659,616 USD and advertising revenue is $307 USD per day. |
WOW, I had no idea this site was so large. 32,000 visitors daily!
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@LB
I just ignore the trick kiddies who are obviously native American/English speakers but don't care enough and/or think they are too cool to use standard language on the net.
I just ignore the trick kiddies who are obviously native American/English speakers but don't care enough and/or think they are too cool to use standard language on the net.
Well, given the number of people who actually use code tags when they post, I'd say the number of folks who can read english is far less then the number of those who can. :p
Maybe when you register there should be a big pop-up box that says, in big flashing red letters, IF YOU POST CODE USE THE CODE TAGS.
Maybe when you register there should be a big pop-up box that says, in big flashing red letters, IF YOU POST CODE USE THE CODE TAGS.
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@LB
You have to remember two things: 1) translators 2) English, while widely used, isn't globally used.
We had a foreign exchange student in my high school and when he went online he would type his questions and such into a translator, click English, and then just copy and paste the translation.
Now, I'm not anti-American, but I have grown tired of all the sentiment of "You're in America, speak English!" I hate that because, if you look at history, we took the land from French, Mexicans, Native American Indians, Spanish, etc. We built our cities on the backs of the Chinese, Japanese, African Americans, etc. We did Japanese Internment camps during World War II. We are a melting pot, and our history is filled with foreigners coming to America to live the "American Dream" and yet we have grown to hate anyone that doesn't speak fluent English.
Not to get political here, but they want the government to stop companies from outsourcing jobs and also want to get rid of immigrants. Well that is the perfect solution! If all the immigrants from other countries come here, then there is no one to outsource to and they would have to stay here (not to mention we would have plenty of fast food restaurants for them to work at so we wouldn't have the issue of language barriers).
You have to remember two things: 1) translators 2) English, while widely used, isn't globally used.
We had a foreign exchange student in my high school and when he went online he would type his questions and such into a translator, click English, and then just copy and paste the translation.
Now, I'm not anti-American, but I have grown tired of all the sentiment of "You're in America, speak English!" I hate that because, if you look at history, we took the land from French, Mexicans, Native American Indians, Spanish, etc. We built our cities on the backs of the Chinese, Japanese, African Americans, etc. We did Japanese Internment camps during World War II. We are a melting pot, and our history is filled with foreigners coming to America to live the "American Dream" and yet we have grown to hate anyone that doesn't speak fluent English.
Not to get political here, but they want the government to stop companies from outsourcing jobs and also want to get rid of immigrants. Well that is the perfect solution! If all the immigrants from other countries come here, then there is no one to outsource to and they would have to stay here (not to mention we would have plenty of fast food restaurants for them to work at so we wouldn't have the issue of language barriers).
@ModShop
I was surprised also! I thought this was only an average sized community.
@Raezzor
I'll bet you money we'll still see posts without code tags. Who actually reads those "Read this before posting in this section!" stickeys?
I was surprised also! I thought this was only an average sized community.
@Raezzor
I'll bet you money we'll still see posts without code tags. Who actually reads those "Read this before posting in this section!" stickeys?
@Thumper->@Raezzor: On another forum I go on, it is a tech-support forum for commercial software, so you have reg codes to use with the software of course. When you register and log in, you are forever plagued by a large, annoying banner that says you must add your reg codes to your profile to be allowed to use most forum features. Despite this never disappearing until you register at least one product, people don't seem to understand how to follow the clear instructions at the top of every page they go to despite speaking and reading plain English.
At this point, I've given up. From now on I'll actually believe the saying "people don't read anything, even if you read everything".
At this point, I've given up. From now on I'll actually believe the saying "people don't read anything, even if you read everything".
| LB wrote: |
|---|
| At this point, I've given up. From now on I'll actually believe the saying "people don't read anything, even if you read everything". |
No, they read everything, but the problem is that with text on screen the reader is left to interpret what you are saying and they can misinterpret what you are saying. In my case, I just like rambling about my point of view in off-topic threads so a find ways to segue into my points.
closed account (3qX21hU5)
I really don't get how hard it would be to interpret use the code tags format when posting codes on the forum (Hint: the <> off to your right).
I've seen plenty of times people state to use code tags when they post thier code and the poster just completely ignores them and doesnt use the tags once again. Like this post here http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/83729/
So I can see where LB is coming from where he says people dont read anything, even if they read everything.
I've seen plenty of times people state to use code tags when they post thier code and the poster just completely ignores them and doesnt use the tags once again. Like this post here http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/83729/
So I can see where LB is coming from where he says people dont read anything, even if they read everything.
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@LB, BHXSpector
One of the most important rules in interface design is that people don't read anything. So, no, people don't read or follow instructions. Hackers are one of the (very) few cohorts of people who tend to expect people to read their (expletive) manuals, and even we don't read squat...
@Zereo
...Related posts about code tags, for example.
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/79938/
(Though I do understand that it is easy to lose posts that are a week old or older.)
@BHXSpector
I don't think the "we're in America, speak English" sentiment relates here. This is an English language forum. As such, it is not unreasonable to require people to at least attempt to use English.
The reason for this is that English is the de facto international language on the internet. Here's a half-decent article I googled-up, as it were:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/lingua-franca.html
(BTW, his 'English is unsuitable' stance is straw horse crap -- all his reasons apply equally to any other national language, meaning he thinks a constructed language would be best.)
Many of us actually do speak multiple languages, and it is not uncommon for some OP to find someone to use his native language with him. Spanish, Greek, Cyrillic languages, Portugese, Chinese, are but a few of the languages common to our most prominent members.
One of the most important rules in interface design is that people don't read anything. So, no, people don't read or follow instructions. Hackers are one of the (very) few cohorts of people who tend to expect people to read their (expletive) manuals, and even we don't read squat...
@Zereo
...Related posts about code tags, for example.
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/79938/
(Though I do understand that it is easy to lose posts that are a week old or older.)
@BHXSpector
I don't think the "we're in America, speak English" sentiment relates here. This is an English language forum. As such, it is not unreasonable to require people to at least attempt to use English.
The reason for this is that English is the de facto international language on the internet. Here's a half-decent article I googled-up, as it were:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/lingua-franca.html
(BTW, his 'English is unsuitable' stance is straw horse crap -- all his reasons apply equally to any other national language, meaning he thinks a constructed language would be best.)
Many of us actually do speak multiple languages, and it is not uncommon for some OP to find someone to use his native language with him. Spanish, Greek, Cyrillic languages, Portugese, Chinese, are but a few of the languages common to our most prominent members.
@Duoas
Again people do read, they just start answering everything before they read to the end. If you remember they used to always do that silly test in high school where they gave you a sheet of directions where the first line is "Do not do anything until you have read the whole page." Upon reading it you find the the last line is "Ignore everything else and just write your name on the front." Yet you would always see most of the room start filling it in without reading the full page as directed.
As for the sentiment, I'm afraid it is the same as the logic you just used about the site is basically the same phrasing I've seen on the news and internet about immigrants in the US. "America is an English speaking country, if you are going to live here learn to speak the language." There are even shirts about it, but the logic is always the same behind them both.
The internet being predominantly English means little too as you still will find a lot of foreign users that speak no English seeking help. On the Allegro IRC channel jumps around between Portuguese, Spanish, Estonian, English, and some that are dabbling in learning Japanese. You have to think of one fact, if you punch in C++ tutorial in Google you get this site right at the top, now I don't know if a foreign language version is available (which would also increase the chance of foreign languages being in here). Just like America, the Internet is a melting pot of the world and you have to be lenient when a person with a different language comes in here. The translators out there are majorly flawed so it is even harder for a person who only knows Chinese to translate it to English, just like you would be taking a big risk if you went to a Spanish site while learning Spanish, but used an English to Spanish translator as it will mess up and make the sentence make know sense.
None of this applies though if the person is just being an idiot and purposely talking stupidly just to be an ass.
Again people do read, they just start answering everything before they read to the end. If you remember they used to always do that silly test in high school where they gave you a sheet of directions where the first line is "Do not do anything until you have read the whole page." Upon reading it you find the the last line is "Ignore everything else and just write your name on the front." Yet you would always see most of the room start filling it in without reading the full page as directed.
As for the sentiment, I'm afraid it is the same as the logic you just used about the site is basically the same phrasing I've seen on the news and internet about immigrants in the US. "America is an English speaking country, if you are going to live here learn to speak the language." There are even shirts about it, but the logic is always the same behind them both.
The internet being predominantly English means little too as you still will find a lot of foreign users that speak no English seeking help. On the Allegro IRC channel jumps around between Portuguese, Spanish, Estonian, English, and some that are dabbling in learning Japanese. You have to think of one fact, if you punch in C++ tutorial in Google you get this site right at the top, now I don't know if a foreign language version is available (which would also increase the chance of foreign languages being in here). Just like America, the Internet is a melting pot of the world and you have to be lenient when a person with a different language comes in here. The translators out there are majorly flawed so it is even harder for a person who only knows Chinese to translate it to English, just like you would be taking a big risk if you went to a Spanish site while learning Spanish, but used an English to Spanish translator as it will mess up and make the sentence make know sense.
None of this applies though if the person is just being an idiot and purposely talking stupidly just to be an ass.