How are people actually like this?
I'm with Duoas. That comparison isn't really valid. The Internet, unlike the real world, is mainly a communication medium. If you want to communicate something to someone you don't really have much choice other than to do it in a language they will understand. More so if all you have is text and can't depend on such things as body language.
The fact that in some community there may be bilinguals is irrelevant. If you go to a primarily English-typing community on the slim chance that someone might understand your language, then something has obviously gone wrong.
Leniency can only get you so far. A communication problem can be frustrating for both parties. The person who's answering questions can find themselves asking for clarifications again and again because the other person can't quite get their meaning across (for whatever reason), and the one who's asking also needs to spend more time answering said requests than if they had asked a native speaker of their own language.
And then there's the risk of miscommunication. For example, English is so touchy that a misplaced comma can completely alter the meaning of a sentence. Some native speakers aren't aware of these nuances; imagine what it's like for non-natives.
This isn't an issue of tolerance, it's about practicality.
The fact that in some community there may be bilinguals is irrelevant. If you go to a primarily English-typing community on the slim chance that someone might understand your language, then something has obviously gone wrong.
Leniency can only get you so far. A communication problem can be frustrating for both parties. The person who's answering questions can find themselves asking for clarifications again and again because the other person can't quite get their meaning across (for whatever reason), and the one who's asking also needs to spend more time answering said requests than if they had asked a native speaker of their own language.
And then there's the risk of miscommunication. For example, English is so touchy that a misplaced comma can completely alter the meaning of a sentence. Some native speakers aren't aware of these nuances; imagine what it's like for non-natives.
This isn't an issue of tolerance, it's about practicality.
Happy 17th post, helios!
(The 16th is here: http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/85092/#msg456231 )
(The 16th is here: http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/85092/#msg456231 )
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It is actually a very valid comparison as the Internet is an extension of the real world. The communication problems you are talking about here you run into in real life too. I live in Bloomington, Indiana where Indiana University is and our town is full of English speaking Americans, but due to the college we have Korean, Chinese, Japanese, African dialects, and God knows what else. You wouldn't believe the number of exchange students we have here year round who you can't understand due to their lack of knowing English and their writing abilities are even worse.
You run into them in both real life and online and it is completely useless in complaining about it because their is normally little they can do to fix it as it isn't like they can learn English overnight to make it easier. The thing I don't get is, if you have an issue with someone who is obviously for another country and has poor grammar and English (meaning it is obvious that it isn't the primary language) and you know you get agitated over poor English easy...Why the hell would you bother replying to the thread to begin with? I mean, you know your short comings and if you don't have the patience to help a foreigner interested in programming then don't bother answering as it will just piss you off and cause side threads like this one.
I asked a few of the guys from Allegro that are from other countries to go to their Google and search for "C++ Tutorials" and this site is the first one that appeared on each so it is no wonder we get users that aren't native English speakers. The only solution would be for the parent company behind Cplusplus.com to make equivalent sites in foreign languages or add boards for German/Chinese/Portuguese/etc. as you will continue to get people like that here with limited English capabilities.
You run into them in both real life and online and it is completely useless in complaining about it because their is normally little they can do to fix it as it isn't like they can learn English overnight to make it easier. The thing I don't get is, if you have an issue with someone who is obviously for another country and has poor grammar and English (meaning it is obvious that it isn't the primary language) and you know you get agitated over poor English easy...Why the hell would you bother replying to the thread to begin with? I mean, you know your short comings and if you don't have the patience to help a foreigner interested in programming then don't bother answering as it will just piss you off and cause side threads like this one.
I asked a few of the guys from Allegro that are from other countries to go to their Google and search for "C++ Tutorials" and this site is the first one that appeared on each so it is no wonder we get users that aren't native English speakers. The only solution would be for the parent company behind Cplusplus.com to make equivalent sites in foreign languages or add boards for German/Chinese/Portuguese/etc. as you will continue to get people like that here with limited English capabilities.
| The communication problems you are talking about here you run into in real life too. |
| I asked a few of the guys from Allegro that are from other countries to go to their Google and search for "C++ Tutorials" and this site is the first one that appeared |
http://www.google.com.ar/search?as_q=tutorial+de+c%2B%2B&lr=lang_es
https://www.google.com.ar/search?as_q=tutorial+de+c%2B%2B&lr=lang_pt
| helios wrote: |
|---|
| Sure, but communication isn't a prime function of the real world. That's the key difference. Using the Internet to engage in non-communication is like dialing a random number on the phone and staying silent. It's just a waste of everyone's time. |
...
If communication wasn't a prime function of the real world then the Internet wouldn't have taken off, Facebook and Twitter would have been dead in the water, and texting and driving wouldn't be an issue. In fact, communication is such an important part of the real world that it is the primary reason the Internet and so many services used through it are so popular and widely used.
Also the Internet isn't just about communication anymore. One word: E-commerce. It has also become a way of buying and selling things thanks to Ebay, Walmart, Craig's List, Target, Best Buy, etc. Still a type of communication, but it is designed to help you save time from running around trying to find what you want or need.
| helios wrote: |
|---|
| Must have been real shocking when an English search string produced an English result. :-) |
Well I figured the would have done the search by translating the search parameters to their native tongue. Though, I went to Google's Spanish site and did the "C++ Tutorial" search and got this site as first and the rest were Spanish C++ sites.
http://www.google.es/webhp?hl=es&tab=ww#hl=es&gs_nf=3&cp=5&gs_id=1z&xhr=t&q=C%2B%2B+Tutorial&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=C%2B%2B+T&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=c836e850f24e274a&bpcl=38625945&biw=1280&bih=710
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| If communication wasn't a prime function of the real world then the Internet wouldn't have taken off |
| If X becomes popular, then its main function is a main function of the real world. |
What about knives and stabbing/cutting?
Fire?
Communication is no doubt important. That much is obvious to anyone. But to say that the world exists chiefly to allow communication of its inhabitants is just absurd.
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Well you can invert it, loop-da-loop it, or anything else you want with it, but fact is that economics tells you nothing is created without the need for it. Wiping you ass is a main function of the world unless you want the alternative of smelling like shit everywhere you go or using the classic corn cob to wipe so they started making softer materials to wipe with which we now have toilet paper. Knives were created for cutting, hunting, skinning, etc. Fire was harvested, for lack of a better term, for warmth and cooking.
Without communication nothing would get done. Programming should show this better than anything due to the different departments needed for development of anything. Internet is the evolution of communication devices (not to mention it was originally military based before it went commercial). The world is going to function however the world functioned before humans were here, but the 'main function of society' is that which is needed by the people that make up the society.
Economics tells us that everything we have today is because the demand for it became great enough for someone to feel it was necessary to make. If the need to have better communication was never there, then we may very well have still been sending mail instead of calling on a phone.
Without communication nothing would get done. Programming should show this better than anything due to the different departments needed for development of anything. Internet is the evolution of communication devices (not to mention it was originally military based before it went commercial). The world is going to function however the world functioned before humans were here, but the 'main function of society' is that which is needed by the people that make up the society.
Economics tells us that everything we have today is because the demand for it became great enough for someone to feel it was necessary to make. If the need to have better communication was never there, then we may very well have still been sending mail instead of calling on a phone.
| economics tells you nothing is created without the need for it |
You should probably get that news to the economists. I'm sure they'd enjoy the laugh.
Supply and demand. You have to pick a market where there is demand for a product, create the product or a rip-off of an existing product, and start mass producing them to make a profit. If there was no demand for Internet then this site wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be so many providers.
| Wiping you ass is a main function of the world |
I'm confused. What exactly is it you're arguing? I see two or three points in your post that stand out, but no real conclusion. Your last paragraph just says "communication is important", which is what I said earlier.
My main argument was that comparing the Internet to the real world in this way:
| As for the sentiment, I'm afraid it is the same as the logic you just used about the site is basically the same phrasing I've seen on the news and internet about immigrants in the US. "America is an English speaking country, if you are going to live here learn to speak the language." |
No communication isn't a function of the world it is a function of man as is the Internet. A function of the world would be weather. Unless you are thinking of a different definition for function as I think of this when I see function:
The world existed before us and will go on existing after us, but in all honesty it sounds like you are the one muddling points to make an argument. I'm referring to the world in regards to man while you seem to be seeking a different connection to world. In the real world (in regards to man), communication is a function of it otherwise we would still be just warring tribes with no main government.
| an activity that is natural to or the purpose of a person or thing |
The world existed before us and will go on existing after us, but in all honesty it sounds like you are the one muddling points to make an argument. I'm referring to the world in regards to man while you seem to be seeking a different connection to world. In the real world (in regards to man), communication is a function of it otherwise we would still be just warring tribes with no main government.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it would be unreasonable of an English-speaker to expect everyone on the Internet to speak English, just like it would be unreasonable of a Chinese, Hungarian, Portuguese or Dutch person to expect everyone to speak those languages. The difference is that the majority of people on the Internet do speak English, and it has become the lingua franca, the de facto language. If someone posts in a language other than English, they should expect to get proportionally less replies. If a website or its community politely requests that people only post in English, then that's what they should do.
As for the "if you're going to live here, learn the language" thing, I kind of agree with it. What's the point of living in a country if you can't communicate with its citizens or its government? How are you going to pay bills and taxes if you can't read the language? Is it more unreasonable for a society to expect immigrants to make an effort to fit in, or for an immigrant to expect an entire society to bend over backwards to accommodate him?
As for the "if you're going to live here, learn the language" thing, I kind of agree with it. What's the point of living in a country if you can't communicate with its citizens or its government? How are you going to pay bills and taxes if you can't read the language? Is it more unreasonable for a society to expect immigrants to make an effort to fit in, or for an immigrant to expect an entire society to bend over backwards to accommodate him?
you guys should go easy on bran new people, you cant expect them to know about <> button straight up (second time round however) and if they throw slang and bad English, even type in the way their native dialect sounds, you've got to accept that brand new people don't know the local customs, they should definitely make an effort to be clear and if everyone asks that they use 'th' instead of 'f' more often for example, they should try.
however English is an evolving language, its not the same as it was 500 years ago and it should be allowed to change, with cultural influences.
@chrisname i can tell your English, and that you are proly living in london birmingham or liverpool, i live in hounslow its crazy (the food is good and cheap too)
@chrisname funny story about the french pride in their language, they have the worst saftey record for airline accidents in west europe because the lingua franca in airtravel is english and the french pilots are the only ones who refuse to speak it
however English is an evolving language, its not the same as it was 500 years ago and it should be allowed to change, with cultural influences.
@chrisname i can tell your English, and that you are proly living in london birmingham or liverpool, i live in hounslow its crazy (the food is good and cheap too)
@chrisname funny story about the french pride in their language, they have the worst saftey record for airline accidents in west europe because the lingua franca in airtravel is english and the french pilots are the only ones who refuse to speak it
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| devonrevenge wrote: |
|---|
| i can tell your English, and that you are proly living in london birmingham or liverpool |
I'm originally from just outside of London, but I live in Brighton now and for the next 3 years.
sfunny i moved from brighton, i miss the amazing basketball court on the sea front, cool town aint it, probly know you lol, you know what the world can be like.
I doubt it, I just moved here two months ago, and hadn't been here for several years before then. And yeah, it's a great place. Full of hipsters though. Thankfully there's a smallish metal scene, so I'm not socially isolated.
@chrisname: Again, ¿where do you get your statistic from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet#Internet_users_by_language
> you cant expect them to know about <> button straight up
The info is somewhat hidden (is not in the `read before posting')
It shows on alt-text over a button that does not resemble your intention (the output one looks better),
in a `Format' section (bold, italic, underline, adds confusion)
And in an article with perhaps an obscure title.
However,
_ you are in a programming community, it must be an easy way to share code.
_ ¿don't you see all those other threads that have code with indentation and colours?
They should at least ask.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet#Internet_users_by_language
> you cant expect them to know about <> button straight up
The info is somewhat hidden (is not in the `read before posting')
It shows on alt-text over a button that does not resemble your intention (the output one looks better),
in a `Format' section (bold, italic, underline, adds confusion)
And in an article with perhaps an obscure title.
However,
_ you are in a programming community, it must be an easy way to share code.
_ ¿don't you see all those other threads that have code with indentation and colours?
They should at least ask.
@ne555 there is a difference between "the majority of people on the Internet do speak English" and "the majority of people on the Internet do speak English as their native language". It would seem that your diagram shows the latter.
Wait. English 27%, Chinese 25%. I'm missing something. What was your point?
Wait. English 27%, Chinese 25%. I'm missing something. What was your point?
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