Guilt is a selfish feeling (for me)
I have Asperger's (a form of Autism) and I feel emotions in a completely different way from other people. In fact, my emotions aren't even real emotions.
Specifically, an interesting (and for me troubling) example is guilt. The way I feel guilt is as follows:
- I have done something considered wrong
- I know that what I have done is considered wrong
- Other people know I know, or expect me to know, the above two points
- Other people are negatively affected by what I've done
- Other people will not treat me with as much respect as before
- I will lose access to some of the things I enjoy
For me, guilt is a selfish emotion. The reason I can feel guilt is because I am selfish.
And here's the most interesting part: because I am pretty sure other people don't feel guilt this way, and I know that my feeling of guilt is selfish, and it has been hammered into my head that feeling selfish is wrong, I feel guilty because I can feel guilt.
All my emotions are like this; they are purely based on logic, and many of them are self-oriented, despite them causing my behavior to be very non-selfish. I take pride in not being selfish, in being kind, in helping, in doing what's right and not what's wrong, etc. and yet the emotions that drive me to do this are not real emotions and are actually self-centered.
What is your take on this? Is this how other people experience guilt and other emotions and just aren't aware, or am I among the few whose emotions are purely logical and selfish?
Specifically, an interesting (and for me troubling) example is guilt. The way I feel guilt is as follows:
- I have done something considered wrong
- I know that what I have done is considered wrong
- Other people know I know, or expect me to know, the above two points
- Other people are negatively affected by what I've done
- Other people will not treat me with as much respect as before
- I will lose access to some of the things I enjoy
For me, guilt is a selfish emotion. The reason I can feel guilt is because I am selfish.
And here's the most interesting part: because I am pretty sure other people don't feel guilt this way, and I know that my feeling of guilt is selfish, and it has been hammered into my head that feeling selfish is wrong, I feel guilty because I can feel guilt.
All my emotions are like this; they are purely based on logic, and many of them are self-oriented, despite them causing my behavior to be very non-selfish. I take pride in not being selfish, in being kind, in helping, in doing what's right and not what's wrong, etc. and yet the emotions that drive me to do this are not real emotions and are actually self-centered.
What is your take on this? Is this how other people experience guilt and other emotions and just aren't aware, or am I among the few whose emotions are purely logical and selfish?
| am I among the few whose emotions are purely logical and selfish? |
I can only speak for myself, but I know there is rarely if ever logic to my emotions. Whether or not many of our emotions are selfish, however is debatable. I personally don't think it's black and white for a person: sometimes someone feels guilt because they are afraid of being morally judged by other people and sometimes it's out of a genuine remorse for ones actions. Obviously in your case, however, it is black and white, which is interesting, to say the least. Anyhow, as long as your guilt is creating the same outwards effect on the world, I don't see why it matters so much. What would our emotions matter if they didn't change our behavior?
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Guilt is more about empathy and reciprocating decency. People typically don't feel guilty about something because other people said they should, or because they get treated differently as a result of their actions. They feel guilty because they wouldn't like it if someone did the same thing to them.
You can (and should) feel guilty about doing something wrong even if nobody else ever knows you were the one that did it.
Example, if you went out and smashed a random car's windshield on the street -- that would be something to feel guilty about, even if nobody ever found out it was you that did it. The owner is going to eventually come back and see their busted windshield and have to deal with it. It would be expensive for them, and a big hassle. It would suck. You would feel bad if someone did that to you, so you should feel bad doing it to someone else.
Guilt is extremely logical. It's one of the few emotions that can actually [usually] be explained. If you are fortunate enough to be able to structure your emotions around logic (or maybe I'm interpretting what you were saying before), it may not be difficult for you to see/experience guilt this way.
But as ascii says, I can only speak for myself.
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Another ironic thing here is you mention you experience guilt out of selfishness.... when selfishness is often something people feel guilty about. I thought that was rather interesting.
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I would say that being afraid of being morally judged is fear, not guilt. You can't really feel guilty about something without sympathy.
You can (and should) feel guilty about doing something wrong even if nobody else ever knows you were the one that did it.
Example, if you went out and smashed a random car's windshield on the street -- that would be something to feel guilty about, even if nobody ever found out it was you that did it. The owner is going to eventually come back and see their busted windshield and have to deal with it. It would be expensive for them, and a big hassle. It would suck. You would feel bad if someone did that to you, so you should feel bad doing it to someone else.
Guilt is extremely logical. It's one of the few emotions that can actually [usually] be explained. If you are fortunate enough to be able to structure your emotions around logic (or maybe I'm interpretting what you were saying before), it may not be difficult for you to see/experience guilt this way.
But as ascii says, I can only speak for myself.
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Another ironic thing here is you mention you experience guilt out of selfishness.... when selfishness is often something people feel guilty about. I thought that was rather interesting.
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| ascii wrote: |
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| sometimes someone feels guilt because they are afraid of being morally judged by other people and sometimes it's out of a genuine remorse for ones actions. |
I would say that being afraid of being morally judged is fear, not guilt. You can't really feel guilty about something without sympathy.
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Maybe it's closer to fear then, because I can't feel sympathy. I know when I am supposed to feel sympathy, but I don't, and I have to force it.
You can understand it, though, right? Surely you can put yourself in someone else's shoes and imagine how your actions would affect them.
I can't comment on your situation, but for a few years I went through having no emotion (9-15 years of age or so). When I was 9 years old my father was murdered, for a good 6 years I felt nothing and cared about nothing. I'm now 31 years old and while I feel again, I feel my father got what he deserved. *shrugs* Outside of that episode, I believe I've always had feelings.
I think the guilt is doing what it was designed to do, hey if your emotions are purely logical you could program them into a little character on an array board and give it needs and things to feed the needs and put other chars on the board with emotions too and we have a little emotional party simulation, we could see how your guilt is usefull and a benefit to the whole group, infact you could use each emotional robot a different task and simulate a computer with a personality :D
can you turn any of your emotions into algorithms here? I hope im not trivializing your emotions, theres this very american melo-emotional ideal that theyre are sacred and not scientific(they are magical according to disney)
EDIT: I am very interested in working out how to make software run like a human, all flawed and with fuzzy logic but naturally good at observing and understanding.
EDIT: who else here is autistic spectrum? I have 'exreme' ADHD, i take ritalin aged 28 which is rare, theres just no benefits like autism seems to have.
can you turn any of your emotions into algorithms here? I hope im not trivializing your emotions, theres this very american melo-emotional ideal that theyre are sacred and not scientific(they are magical according to disney)
EDIT: I am very interested in working out how to make software run like a human, all flawed and with fuzzy logic but naturally good at observing and understanding.
EDIT: who else here is autistic spectrum? I have 'exreme' ADHD, i take ritalin aged 28 which is rare, theres just no benefits like autism seems to have.
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I have ADHD too but I take Focalin. As for my emotions, I don't really consider them true emotions.
I'm really against making robots and AIs that emulate human behavior. Not because I think they will tak over the world, but because I think that it will lead to them taking jobs away from people. There's some stuff, like assembly line work, that just should not be done by humans - it should be done by robots and monitored by a few people. Besides me and various others, humans are social, emotional creatures, so there should be more social, emotional jobs for people to do.
I'm really against making robots and AIs that emulate human behavior. Not because I think they will tak over the world, but because I think that it will lead to them taking jobs away from people. There's some stuff, like assembly line work, that just should not be done by humans - it should be done by robots and monitored by a few people. Besides me and various others, humans are social, emotional creatures, so there should be more social, emotional jobs for people to do.
closed account (3qX21hU5)
| who else here is autistic spectrum? I have 'exreme' ADHD, i take ritalin aged 28 which is rare, theres just no benefits like autism seems to have. |
I have worked with autistic children and adults while doing community work, and my brother is autistic. You seems to think that there are a bunch of "benifits" of being autistic. You should be thankful that you have ADHD and are not autistic, now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being autistic I'm just saying that every child and adult I have talked to wished with their whole heart that they were "normal". There is a lot of things they can't do that they wish they could do. My brother is very very smart, he can do math problems that would take me hours to do in a couple minutes, but he has told me he would rather be the dumbest person in the world then be autistic.
But that's enough of that. as for making robot AI's that emulate human behavior, I don't think it is possible. There are to many emotions that you can't just make out of "code". You will never be able to program a robot to "love" like humans do. You could make a crude copy of love but it would never be the same. And that is only one emotion there are plenty of others.
@L B, thats very interesting reason not to like it, i like the idea of free thinking computers because of the possibilities.
Of course your probably right but someones gonna do the research, i would program my AIs to be all familiar and needy, that way they will be too soppy to nuke us.
As for the economy; dont you think its daft that we mechanize our work force more and more, outsource stuff more and more, automate all the silly little jobs and build in more and more efficient systems and processes and still expect every human being in your country to get a job! I suppose a completely automated work force will lead to socialism, which is fine if you know what socialism is.
Oh yeah hows the focalin for you? i tried concerta but i kept messing that up and double dosing :/ i find i have to eat lots before taking ritalin, its not very comfortable .
@zereo Oh yeah, well maybe i should have said aspergers but thats proly narrow of me too,excuse my ignorance please.
I dont know, anything the DNA can do we can do better, unless that whole rule of a computer cant make a computer thats better than itself rule still applies, do you think bio chemistry will come up with a processor of its own oneday?
Of course your probably right but someones gonna do the research, i would program my AIs to be all familiar and needy, that way they will be too soppy to nuke us.
As for the economy; dont you think its daft that we mechanize our work force more and more, outsource stuff more and more, automate all the silly little jobs and build in more and more efficient systems and processes and still expect every human being in your country to get a job! I suppose a completely automated work force will lead to socialism, which is fine if you know what socialism is.
Oh yeah hows the focalin for you? i tried concerta but i kept messing that up and double dosing :/ i find i have to eat lots before taking ritalin, its not very comfortable .
@zereo Oh yeah, well maybe i should have said aspergers but thats proly narrow of me too,excuse my ignorance please.
I dont know, anything the DNA can do we can do better, unless that whole rule of a computer cant make a computer thats better than itself rule still applies, do you think bio chemistry will come up with a processor of its own oneday?
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| Zereo wrote: |
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| I have worked with autistic children and adults while doing community work, and my brother is autistic. You seems to think that there are a bunch of "benifits" of being autistic. You should be thankful that you have ADHD and are not autistic, now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being autistic I'm just saying that every child and adult I have talked to wished with their whole heart that they were "normal". There is a lot of things they can't do that they wish they could do. My brother is very very smart, he can do math problems that would take me hours to do in a couple minutes, but he has told me he would rather be the dumbest person in the world then be autistic. |
Now, I can't communicate with others as effectively, but I don't consider that as important as everyone makes it out to be. If you're happy with your life, you should never try to fit in to what's considered "normal". Trying to be "normal" is trying to be a docile citizen that the government, media, and large companies can control and enslave. I honestly think thousands of people are unhappy because they try too much to be what others want them to be.
| devonrevenge wrote: |
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| outsource stuff more and more, |
| devonrevenge wrote: |
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| I suppose a completely automated work force will lead to socialism, which is fine if you know what socialism is. |
The Focalin is working quite well, all the other medicines I had been taking in the past stunted my growth and made me not eat much, but I am growing fine now and I actually get hungry and feel the need to eat.
But not all people are created equal. There are many people who are not capable of work that requires more intelligence.
This is probably the most interesting lounge topic I've come across. Human qualities are fascinating to me - both the ups and downs. I think they should be fascinating to everyone, seeing as we're all on our own individual journey to discover some sort of meaning (whether we realize it or not).
I haven't thought of it like that before, that's really interesting. I suppose guilt can be a selfish emotion, depending on what you feel guilty about. If you're certain you feel guilt only because you're losing some social status, then sure, it is a self-centered emotion. But then, at the same time, you feel bad about being self-centered. Self-centered acts, such as smashing a window and not taking responsibility for it as Disch mentioned, are usually the same acts that bring about the feeling of guilt in the first place. So I would say your sense of guilt isn't much different from mine, you just have the additional intermediate step of logically analyzing it first, which sounds like it could be a huge blessing in disguise.
I have a problem with sympathy as well. I can recognize if a situation sucks for someone else, but i can't make myself actually care about it. I know when I'm supposed to feel sorry for someone, but I don't actually feel sorry for them.
A few weeks ago, i was having a conversation with my Dad, who seemed kind of upset and distraught. He went on to explain how one of his closest friends (and my god father) had just passed away from multiple sclerosis. I knew this person, i met him, and he was a really nice guy. I knew that my Dad must be feeling really down. But I couldn't feel it myself, and i realize how much of an ass I must have sounded like when all I had to say was "that sucks." It didn't matter how much I tried, i just could not make myself care about the situation.
Sometimes I think that that makes me a "bad" person because it's a bit selfish, but I can't feel negatively about that either. I don't mind being selfish. There's not many things I actually care about, I suppose.
I guess I just have a problem with negative emotions and being attached to things. I tend not to experience them. Things like stress, and being upset just don't click in my mind.
The only time I've ever felt some of these "real" emotions was under the influence of a psychedelic or hallucinogen; and it scares the shit out of me.
On the subject of mental/personality disorders, I have a real problem with labeling them. For example, calling someone ADHD and then medicating them for it, I believe, takes away a significant aspect of their personality. Y'know? Everybody's different. Some people have a hard time keeping a train of thought, but does that make it a 'disorder'?
The only way that you can justly call something a disorder is if it affects a person's ability to live. Say, if someone had such bad ADHD that they were unable to care for themselves or hold a job so that they could provide for themselves, then It's more reasonable to be medicated.
I suppose i'm just against most pharmaceuticals. There are things that shouldn't be tampered with.
People fascinate me, though. I think if there were anything I would major in other than electronics, it would be in some field of psychology; probably social or neural. I've got a growing urge to find meaning in everything; life, feelings, etc. As I said, everyone's on their own quest to understand.
| L B wrote: |
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| I feel guilty because I can feel guilt |
| L B wrote: |
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| I can't feel sympathy |
A few weeks ago, i was having a conversation with my Dad, who seemed kind of upset and distraught. He went on to explain how one of his closest friends (and my god father) had just passed away from multiple sclerosis. I knew this person, i met him, and he was a really nice guy. I knew that my Dad must be feeling really down. But I couldn't feel it myself, and i realize how much of an ass I must have sounded like when all I had to say was "that sucks." It didn't matter how much I tried, i just could not make myself care about the situation.
Sometimes I think that that makes me a "bad" person because it's a bit selfish, but I can't feel negatively about that either. I don't mind being selfish. There's not many things I actually care about, I suppose.
I guess I just have a problem with negative emotions and being attached to things. I tend not to experience them. Things like stress, and being upset just don't click in my mind.
The only time I've ever felt some of these "real" emotions was under the influence of a psychedelic or hallucinogen; and it scares the shit out of me.
On the subject of mental/personality disorders, I have a real problem with labeling them. For example, calling someone ADHD and then medicating them for it, I believe, takes away a significant aspect of their personality. Y'know? Everybody's different. Some people have a hard time keeping a train of thought, but does that make it a 'disorder'?
The only way that you can justly call something a disorder is if it affects a person's ability to live. Say, if someone had such bad ADHD that they were unable to care for themselves or hold a job so that they could provide for themselves, then It's more reasonable to be medicated.
I suppose i'm just against most pharmaceuticals. There are things that shouldn't be tampered with.
People fascinate me, though. I think if there were anything I would major in other than electronics, it would be in some field of psychology; probably social or neural. I've got a growing urge to find meaning in everything; life, feelings, etc. As I said, everyone's on their own quest to understand.
| I have a problem with sympathy as well. I can recognize if a situation sucks for someone else, but i can't make myself actually care about it. I know when I'm supposed to feel sorry for someone, but I don't actually feel sorry for them. |
Holy crap, this is exactly how I am :O I always contributed it to many close deaths/detachments in my family at an early age (father at 10, grandmother whom I was very close to at 11, dad's side of family bailed shortly afterwards). So now I hear about other people's situation and rationally I know that it just sucks for them, but emotionally I just can't care about it. I've been this way since I can really remember as I don't have many memories at all from before my father passed away.
It's actually kind of awkward for me. I've been to funerals and gatherings during someone's death, and it'll be somebody I know, and everybody else is sad but I'm just there. I try to put on a saddish face, but inside I'm just fine. I could very well be at home playing video games and feel the same way.
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| ResidentBiscuit wrote: |
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| I could very well be at home playing video games and feel the same way. |
| ResidentBiscuit wrote: |
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| I always contributed it to many close deaths |
^ Damn, that sounds abstract.
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| I refuse to give any physical event credit for my quirks. |
Part of me wants to be that stubborn (no offence) but then part of me has to be logical and realize that it isn't normal (or everyone fakes it and is afraid to admit it) and something had to cause it. I can't remember being not like I am now either, but I was very young when it started.
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There are different types of autism and different levels. Some can function on their own and some will need assistance for the rest of their lives. I to am also a firm believer that everyone is different and shouldn't conform to what is believed to be normal. But take for instance my brother, he most likely will have to have someone take care of him for the rest of his life. He is the smartest person that I know and he is the best person I know but he most likely never will be able to live on his own.
But just because he can't live on his own doesn't mean he isn't normal. So yes I guess normal wasn't the best choice of word maybe I should have said he can't do everything other people can do or something along them lines. But that doesn't make him less of a human being, in my eyes he is the best person alive, and just like everyone else his "flaws" make him the person he is.
But just because he can't live on his own doesn't mean he isn't normal. So yes I guess normal wasn't the best choice of word maybe I should have said he can't do everything other people can do or something along them lines. But that doesn't make him less of a human being, in my eyes he is the best person alive, and just like everyone else his "flaws" make him the person he is.
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None taken.
Define normal. That's hard to do, because there's no such thing; normal is in the eye of the beholder.
Another thing I refuse to do is use "textbook normal" as a standard of comparison.
Why?
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And situations like this are where I'm okay with the minor medication. There are people who are unable to care for themselves. That's not something to look down on, or cast shame to; it was no choice of their own. Maybe that's why I'm so against calling something a "disorder." It puts such a negative attitude towards it.
Define normal. That's hard to do, because there's no such thing; normal is in the eye of the beholder.
Another thing I refuse to do is use "textbook normal" as a standard of comparison.
| ResidentBiscuit wrote: |
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| something had to cause it. |
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| Zereo wrote: |
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| he most likely will have to have someone take care of him for the rest of his life. |
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@Thumper
In your long post you pretty much described me, right down to the interest in psychology. I don't know what causes it, but I don't feel other people's emotions, although I do understand them. I've been told I'm empathic and understanding, but I think it's the latter more than the former. I'm good at reading people's emotions and understanding why they feel the way they do and I care to a certain extent, but I just don't feel their emotions myself like I've been led (or misled?) to believe other people do. I also don't attach much sentimental value to most things. On the plus side, I'm usually happy, I have a good temper (although that sometimes leads to passivity since if someone crosses me I usually don't care) and I don't get troubled easily (although that also sometimes leads to passivity as well as procrastination, because, again, I don't care about things). I wouldn't mind, except that I've wronged people and not felt much guilty (although, to be fair, I've never done anything really bad, and never intentionally, because I'm too good-natured. I'm sure that if I actually hurt someone, I would feel guilty).
I only agree partly on your view on personality disorders, though. I agree that it's not good to slap a label on everyone who doesn't conform to a singular ideal, but that's not really what psychologists do (or, at least, not what they're supposed to do), but it is good to recognise that some people's personality flaws are pathological and make themselves or others unhappy, that they often fit into categories, and that members of each category can be treated in certain ways (usually drugs).
I also disagree with your views on medication. I know people who can't function normally without some kind of drug but with medication you can't tell anything is wrong with them. It allows them to function normally in society and it makes them and others happy. Psychological disorders stem from physical or chemical abnormalities (not unresolved conflicts between three imaginary parts of the brain as a certain German psychoanalyst would have had you believe (and with no evidence, to boot)) and in the latter case (chemical imbalance), drugs (which are also chemicals) can sort-of fix it.
In your long post you pretty much described me, right down to the interest in psychology. I don't know what causes it, but I don't feel other people's emotions, although I do understand them. I've been told I'm empathic and understanding, but I think it's the latter more than the former. I'm good at reading people's emotions and understanding why they feel the way they do and I care to a certain extent, but I just don't feel their emotions myself like I've been led (or misled?) to believe other people do. I also don't attach much sentimental value to most things. On the plus side, I'm usually happy, I have a good temper (although that sometimes leads to passivity since if someone crosses me I usually don't care) and I don't get troubled easily (although that also sometimes leads to passivity as well as procrastination, because, again, I don't care about things). I wouldn't mind, except that I've wronged people and not felt much guilty (although, to be fair, I've never done anything really bad, and never intentionally, because I'm too good-natured. I'm sure that if I actually hurt someone, I would feel guilty).
I only agree partly on your view on personality disorders, though. I agree that it's not good to slap a label on everyone who doesn't conform to a singular ideal, but that's not really what psychologists do (or, at least, not what they're supposed to do), but it is good to recognise that some people's personality flaws are pathological and make themselves or others unhappy, that they often fit into categories, and that members of each category can be treated in certain ways (usually drugs).
I also disagree with your views on medication. I know people who can't function normally without some kind of drug but with medication you can't tell anything is wrong with them. It allows them to function normally in society and it makes them and others happy. Psychological disorders stem from physical or chemical abnormalities (not unresolved conflicts between three imaginary parts of the brain as a certain German psychoanalyst would have had you believe (and with no evidence, to boot)) and in the latter case (chemical imbalance), drugs (which are also chemicals) can sort-of fix it.
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