Guilt is a selfish feeling (for me)
I was paraphrasing what we were taught in my college psychology course when we got to the motivation and emotion section of the book.
closed account (iw0XoG1T)
| chrisname wrote: |
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| it's kind of a truism since no-one really does anything without some form of desire or motive |
This statement I agree with.
| chrisname wrote: |
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| I think that giving because you feel it makes you a good person, not because you feel obligated to give, but because you want to be a good person and you believe generosity is a part of that is a good reason to give. |
This statement I do not agree with. When I give to others I am under no delusion that by giving I make myself a better person. I am the same person whether I give or not. I am not better than the person who doesn't give, and I do not become a better person because I give. I give because it gives me joy.
There is a difference.
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My goal in life is to benefit society. I don't care or know the meaning or significance of life, so I'm just going to have fun and benefit society while I'm at it, since it seems humans will be around for a very long time.
closed account (iw0XoG1T)
Nice case study:
Why would LB want to help society? He has Asperger syndrome most of society avoids interactions with him. You can pretend that society will treat him the same as anyone else--but from my observations people don't.
What is L B's motivation what chemicals are released in his mind that would make him desire to help those who avoid him?
| LB wrote: |
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| My goal in life is to benefit society. |
Why would LB want to help society? He has Asperger syndrome most of society avoids interactions with him. You can pretend that society will treat him the same as anyone else--but from my observations people don't.
What is L B's motivation what chemicals are released in his mind that would make him desire to help those who avoid him?
| chwsks wrote: |
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| When I give to others I am under no delusion that by giving I make myself a better person. I am the same person whether I give or not. I am not better than the person who doesn't give, and I do not become a better person because I give. |
I don't see why a good person with the means and opportunity to help other people wouldn't do it.
| What is L B's motivation what chemicals are released in his mind that would make him desire to help those who avoid him? |
I don't know his motivation for doing it, but he said that he does it because it's his goal in life, so any time he does something to benefit society, he does it to fulfil that goal. He could have any number of reasons for having that goal, though. He could even be lying. I don't know.
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closed account (iw0XoG1T)
| chrisname wrote: |
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| I don't see why a good person with the means and opportunity to help other people wouldn't do it. |
Usually fear, that sometime in the future they will need what they gave away and have to do without. They are still good in that they would help if they were not afraid.
I know millionaires who worry each day that they will not have enough money to take care of themselves and their family in the future.
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Someone who is financially insecure to the point where they can't afford to give anything away would qualify as not having the means to help.
closed account (iw0XoG1T)
| chrisname wrote: |
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| Someone who is financially insecure to the point where they can't afford to give anything away would qualify as not having the means to help. |
During my lunch break I'll walk outside to get a sandwich from a vendor, it is not uncommon for someone to ask for my change, or bus fare. Often I just look down and don't make eye contact. Because I want to make sure that I have enough change to last the week. I have plenty of money, I literally don't give because I don't want to go to ATM later in the week. I'm not insecure I just can't be bothered to help sometimes.
Does this make me bad?
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I never give money to panhandlers. I never feel bad about it... in fact people that panhandle kind of anger me.
I've been taken advantage of by aggressive panhandlers when I was younger.
EDIT: people that ask for bus fare in particular.... I mean how are you going to get stranded somewhere with no money for bus fare? I can think of a few reasons for this:
1) Poor planning. IE: had money to get somewhere but not get back. IE: they're a bonehead.
2) They assumed they'd just be able to panhandle the money. IE: they're an asshole.
3) They actually do have the money, and are just using bus fare as an excuse to panhandle for more money. IE: they're an asshole.
4) Something unexpected came up, like they were expecting someone to give them a ride, but it fell through. IE: legitimate reason.
With the frequency that it happens, the odds of it being #4 are extremely unlikely. So I kind of just have to assume it's one of the other 3.
Even worse are people that ask you for money for cigarettes/booze. Man... if you can't afford to feed your vice, then maybe you should give it up. I'm not going to pay you to get your fix.
</rant>
I've lived in a lot of places with bums/panhandlers, and I've really just grown to loathe them. It's not that I'm not generous... I buy stuff for people I know all the time. But some random dude on the street just coming up and asking me for money? Get lost, jerkwad.
ANOTHER EDIT:
All that said... I would give money to street performers (like people playing guitar or something with a tip jar), because they're actually doing something. Provided I enjoy what they're playing,
CONTINUING WITH EDITS:
I was with my brother one time last summer, and we were driving down the street. He was in the passenger seat smoking a cig with the window rolled down. We stopped at a stoplight and some girl came up to the car and asked him for a cigarette.
He shares the same attitude as me towards panhandlers and bums. So he says no. Not rude about it or anything... but also non-apologetic. So the girl comes right back and says, I kid you not... "Oh, well you suck."
So my brother sucks because he wouldn't give some random girl off the street his stuff that he had to work and pay for? That's crap. He actually turned back around and said "actually, no, you suck." Then we drove away. I don't know if she heard it or not.
But that's kind of the thing. People like that are jerkwads. They don't deserve your money or your stuff. Don't let yourself get guilted into giving them anything.
I've been taken advantage of by aggressive panhandlers when I was younger.
EDIT: people that ask for bus fare in particular.... I mean how are you going to get stranded somewhere with no money for bus fare? I can think of a few reasons for this:
1) Poor planning. IE: had money to get somewhere but not get back. IE: they're a bonehead.
2) They assumed they'd just be able to panhandle the money. IE: they're an asshole.
3) They actually do have the money, and are just using bus fare as an excuse to panhandle for more money. IE: they're an asshole.
4) Something unexpected came up, like they were expecting someone to give them a ride, but it fell through. IE: legitimate reason.
With the frequency that it happens, the odds of it being #4 are extremely unlikely. So I kind of just have to assume it's one of the other 3.
Even worse are people that ask you for money for cigarettes/booze. Man... if you can't afford to feed your vice, then maybe you should give it up. I'm not going to pay you to get your fix.
</rant>
I've lived in a lot of places with bums/panhandlers, and I've really just grown to loathe them. It's not that I'm not generous... I buy stuff for people I know all the time. But some random dude on the street just coming up and asking me for money? Get lost, jerkwad.
ANOTHER EDIT:
All that said... I would give money to street performers (like people playing guitar or something with a tip jar), because they're actually doing something. Provided I enjoy what they're playing,
CONTINUING WITH EDITS:
I was with my brother one time last summer, and we were driving down the street. He was in the passenger seat smoking a cig with the window rolled down. We stopped at a stoplight and some girl came up to the car and asked him for a cigarette.
He shares the same attitude as me towards panhandlers and bums. So he says no. Not rude about it or anything... but also non-apologetic. So the girl comes right back and says, I kid you not... "Oh, well you suck."
So my brother sucks because he wouldn't give some random girl off the street his stuff that he had to work and pay for? That's crap. He actually turned back around and said "actually, no, you suck." Then we drove away. I don't know if she heard it or not.
But that's kind of the thing. People like that are jerkwads. They don't deserve your money or your stuff. Don't let yourself get guilted into giving them anything.
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I wouldn't say it makes you a bad person, but I would say it's bad of you. Laziness is never a good excuse. There are good reasons not to give money to someone who asks for it, even if you could afford to (for example, I won't give money to people that look shady, or if I only have enough money to buy what I want).
I respect the drunk, its a pathless way of life...a hopeless useless one as far as im concerned but who am i to judge them? Theres been people who just drank and drank and somehow survived successive winters throughout the ages, its probably been a way of life for the few since the discovery of booze, and who knows the street drunks life story, its down to him to take my charity and spend it on either booze or sorting his life out, if no one contributed to the drunk it does not necessarily mean he would 'sort his life out' and what for every one elses saftey and approval? to make the streets less messy? i don't care, adverts are as guilty as begging for money as tramps.
Someone asked me for a bus fair once and i was so totally convinced it was real i didn't care if it was or not, a genuine case or perfected art not bothered, but what a nice and approachable pikey.
Someone asked me for a bus fair once and i was so totally convinced it was real i didn't care if it was or not, a genuine case or perfected art not bothered, but what a nice and approachable pikey.
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closed account (iw0XoG1T)
| LB wrote: |
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| All my emotions are like this; they are purely based on logic, and many of them are self-oriented, despite them causing my behavior to be very non-selfish. I take pride in not being selfish, in being kind, in helping, in doing what's right and not what's wrong, etc. and yet the emotions that drive me to do this are not real emotions and are actually self-centered. |
My emotions are not all self-centered; I have emotional responses to the plight of others. Sometimes I allow myself to help and that gives me joy--other times I am unable to help and for that I feel guilt.
I even feel guilt when I don't give to panhandlers who I know will not use my money wisely and are obviously lying to me; e.g they need bus fare. I feel for them because I understand the humiliation of asking for money from someone who knows you are lying. It is humiliating to lie, and they have to lie all day long because they are mentally or physically unable to provide for themselves.
Maybe some of you are unable to experience empathy. Sometimes I can rationalize my action; e.g. I don't help because it would effect my life negatively,or I help because it gives me joy. My action might be self-centered but my emotion is not.
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| devonrevengs wrote: |
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| if no one contributed to the drunk it does not necessarily mean he would 'sort his life out' |
I honestly don't care if he sorts his life out or not. If that's how he wants to live, that's fine. He can go his way and I can go mine. The problem is when he interrupts my life with his crap. Then his lifestyle interferes with mine and he becomes a nuisance.
| i don't care, adverts are as guilty as begging for money as tramps. |
There's a huge difference between inanimate posters and billboards vs. someone approaching you, physically stopping you, interrupting what you're doing, and asking you for something. It's really easy to ignore a poster or a billboard.
Anyway... if you enjoy giving your money to strangers I won't try to stop you. But I am kind of saddened by it. If nobody ever gave those people anything, then they'd stop doing it and life would be better for everyone.
closed account (3qX21hU5)
Most of the time I won't give money to panhandlers either. There is a few that I have given money to but I didn't think they were a panhandler, like one time I was approached by a elder women (I would say 70's) that really did seem stranded and didn't have money for the bus so I paid her fare with my card.
Another one that could have been a panhandler was in front of a mcdonalds and this woman came up to me with 2 little kids. She asked for some money to get some food for her children and herself. It was probably because of the kids but I broke down and bought all 3 of them a meal and gave her some extra money for bus fare. The weird thing was she acted really rude to me when I said I would just buy the meal for them instead of just giving her straight money. Probably because she wanted to buy drugs or other thing with it but still you should be grateful that your getting a meal at least.
But most of the time I will ignore them and don't make eye contact like someone else said. Especially the ones standing on the street corner with a sign. I swear most of the don't need to be out there. There one this one time where I was sitting outside my apartment which is by a major off ramp and I seen the usual street corner "bum" walk away from his corner for the night and get into a damn nice car and drive away. I mean this car was better then even I had.
So I started to think about it, lets say a bum is sitting on a corner in a busy intersection. Over the whole day probably I don't know 10,000 people pass him or so? Now lets say 1/20 people hand him on average a dollar. That would average to about $500 dollars a day which isn't chump change. Now just imaging sitting on a corner in a tourist city like New York where 100,000 + people can pass you in a day.
Another one that could have been a panhandler was in front of a mcdonalds and this woman came up to me with 2 little kids. She asked for some money to get some food for her children and herself. It was probably because of the kids but I broke down and bought all 3 of them a meal and gave her some extra money for bus fare. The weird thing was she acted really rude to me when I said I would just buy the meal for them instead of just giving her straight money. Probably because she wanted to buy drugs or other thing with it but still you should be grateful that your getting a meal at least.
But most of the time I will ignore them and don't make eye contact like someone else said. Especially the ones standing on the street corner with a sign. I swear most of the don't need to be out there. There one this one time where I was sitting outside my apartment which is by a major off ramp and I seen the usual street corner "bum" walk away from his corner for the night and get into a damn nice car and drive away. I mean this car was better then even I had.
So I started to think about it, lets say a bum is sitting on a corner in a busy intersection. Over the whole day probably I don't know 10,000 people pass him or so? Now lets say 1/20 people hand him on average a dollar. That would average to about $500 dollars a day which isn't chump change. Now just imaging sitting on a corner in a tourist city like New York where 100,000 + people can pass you in a day.
Pardon my language in this post....
This.
This is not unusual. These people are usually scum. Not always... but a majority of the time.
One time I had like $2, and was going to the corner store to buy a 2-liter of soda. I actually didn't have any money, but my sister gave me some. I was totally broke with no job... and was staying with my sister in a small 1 bedroom apartment.
I walk the 6 blocks to the store, and get stopped right outside. Dude gives me a sob story about how he's got a job interview lined up and just needs to get some money together to get prepared for it or something. .. I don't really remember. Anyway I cave and give him my 2 dollars, figuring I can go without soda.
After he takes my money, he then proceeds to ask me for more money, saying that he needs to get a total of $20. I explain I don't have any more money, and that I didn't even have that $2 and the only reason I had it was because my sister gave it to me.
So, of course, he tells me to get more money from my sister. When I say "no, I won't ask her for more money", he comes back with, I shit you not, "She doesn't have to know about it".
A wiser me would have taken my $2 back and told the guy to fuck off for trying to get me to steal from my sister and give the money to him. Instead I just slinked away and felt like shit the rest of the day. And I was out $2 and didn't even have soda.
That was the last time. Never again. Fuck those guys.
| The weird thing was she acted really rude to me when I said I would just buy the meal for them instead of just giving her straight money. |
This.
This is not unusual. These people are usually scum. Not always... but a majority of the time.
One time I had like $2, and was going to the corner store to buy a 2-liter of soda. I actually didn't have any money, but my sister gave me some. I was totally broke with no job... and was staying with my sister in a small 1 bedroom apartment.
I walk the 6 blocks to the store, and get stopped right outside. Dude gives me a sob story about how he's got a job interview lined up and just needs to get some money together to get prepared for it or something. .. I don't really remember. Anyway I cave and give him my 2 dollars, figuring I can go without soda.
After he takes my money, he then proceeds to ask me for more money, saying that he needs to get a total of $20. I explain I don't have any more money, and that I didn't even have that $2 and the only reason I had it was because my sister gave it to me.
So, of course, he tells me to get more money from my sister. When I say "no, I won't ask her for more money", he comes back with, I shit you not, "She doesn't have to know about it".
A wiser me would have taken my $2 back and told the guy to fuck off for trying to get me to steal from my sister and give the money to him. Instead I just slinked away and felt like shit the rest of the day. And I was out $2 and didn't even have soda.
That was the last time. Never again. Fuck those guys.
closed account (iw0XoG1T)
I was born in the city but my father moved us to the suburbs because he thought it was a better neighborhood. So I grew up a typical middle-class suburban kid.
Occasionally I would go to the city with my father. My dad always gave street people money--so I said to him once, "dad you know that they are just going to use that money for drugs or alcohol". My father responded with "sometimes a person really needs a drink".
My father was both a drug addict and a drunk--he managed to put together 10 years of sobriety--but in the end the drugs killed him. Unlike most addicts he was always good at making money so as a kid I did not live the life of poor addicts kid.
When I give to street people I remember my dad--a charitable man with serious demons. He was an addict and a good person--sometimes I don't think people realize how complicated the world is.
Occasionally I would go to the city with my father. My dad always gave street people money--so I said to him once, "dad you know that they are just going to use that money for drugs or alcohol". My father responded with "sometimes a person really needs a drink".
My father was both a drug addict and a drunk--he managed to put together 10 years of sobriety--but in the end the drugs killed him. Unlike most addicts he was always good at making money so as a kid I did not live the life of poor addicts kid.
When I give to street people I remember my dad--a charitable man with serious demons. He was an addict and a good person--sometimes I don't think people realize how complicated the world is.
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| Disch wrote: |
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| One time I had like $2, and was going to the corner store to buy a 2-liter of soda. I actually didn't have any money, but my sister gave me some. I was totally broke with no job... and was staying with my sister in a small 1 bedroom apartment. I walk the 6 blocks to the store, and get stopped right outside. Dude gives me a sob story about how he's got a job interview lined up and just needs to get some money together to get prepared for it or something. .. I don't really remember. Anyway I cave and give him my 2 dollars, figuring I can go without soda. After he takes my money, he then proceeds to ask me for more money, saying that he needs to get a total of $20. I explain I don't have any more money, and that I didn't even have that $2 and the only reason I had it was because my sister gave it to me. So, of course, he tells me to get more money from my sister. When I say "no, I won't ask her for more money", he comes back with, I shit you not, "She doesn't have to know about it". |
I think I was almost in this situation earlier today. A man and woman came up to me in a shop and asked for 10p. When I plainly said "No" they laughed in a patronising way and the woman patted my arm, which I hate (it's fine when friendly people do it, even people I don't know, but this was clearly an attempt to be assertive) and told me to "cheer up". I know 10p is nothing, but there must have been a reason that they walked up to the youngest person in the shop (also bare in mind that I actually look a few years younger than my actual age of 18) and I didn't hear them ask anyone else. I felt justified in refusing them because of that, and even more so when the only thing they bought was a large bottle of cheap white wine.
| A wiser me would have taken my $2 back |
I doubt you would have got it back.
| That was the last time. Never again. Fuck those guys. |
I agree, actually; I don't give money to people who are aggressive. From my experience, the legitimate homeless people are usually very polite. The ones who try to bully your money out of you don't deserve it, no matter what their circumstances are.
| If nobody ever gave those people anything, then they'd stop doing it and life would be better for everyone |
Except that the ones who are legitimately stuck in that situation would probably die.
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I think giving someone cash money is the worst thing you could do for them. There's no motivation to turn things around when you give someone money. I'm not a trusting person. I can never be sure that you're going to do what you say you're going to do with the hard-earned money you want me to give you. I think it's much more likely that they put the money towards something that doesn't help them at all instead of "turning their lives around." (i.e. drugs, alcohol; not trying to be stereotypical, though.) So no, I won't give money to panhandlers. I don't give two shits about anyone that's not immediate family, and I don't think my money deserves to be wasted; i work for it.
I will, however, on occasion when I have a spare buck and am feeling generous, buy someone something like foods, blankets, a jacket, etc. Things that will actually help a person out.
The only time I ever donate straight money is to a reputable non-profit. And i barely do that; mostly because I feel that 99% of all non-profits and charities are corrupt as fuck, although that may not be true.
I will, however, on occasion when I have a spare buck and am feeling generous, buy someone something like foods, blankets, a jacket, etc. Things that will actually help a person out.
The only time I ever donate straight money is to a reputable non-profit. And i barely do that; mostly because I feel that 99% of all non-profits and charities are corrupt as fuck, although that may not be true.
@Thumper
It isn't a matter of motivation. It's hard to get a job when you don't have an address and you know that if you don't find enough food and shelter you could be dead in a matter of weeks. Then there's the disease. Also, apparently between 30 and 50% of homeless people actually do have jobs, but the money's not enough. Sure, there's a minimum wage, but you only earn that for the amount of hours that the company actually gives you. I agree that buying them food and such is better than giving them money.
It isn't a matter of motivation. It's hard to get a job when you don't have an address and you know that if you don't find enough food and shelter you could be dead in a matter of weeks. Then there's the disease. Also, apparently between 30 and 50% of homeless people actually do have jobs, but the money's not enough. Sure, there's a minimum wage, but you only earn that for the amount of hours that the company actually gives you. I agree that buying them food and such is better than giving them money.
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closed account (3qX21hU5)
A lot of the time it is a matter of motivation though. Not everyone on the street is there because their job doesn't pay enough or they can't find a job. A lot dont even want a job or cant hold a job for various reasons. Like addicts I know when I was using I couldnt hold a job because there was no way I could get through work when I was withdrawing or I would leave early or not show up just so I could get a fix. So I always got fires. Now this wasn't anyone elses fualt like my employers it was all my fault plain and simple. So from my experiences I believe it is a matter of motivation. Sure there are hurdles you have to overcome but if you are motivated enough nothing can stop you.