Steam for Linux == Headaches
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Man, I thought the Steam client for Linux was going to be a godsend, but after installing it this morning, I've only had headache after headache. If you use Ubuntu and get a recommendation from Steam to add PPA X-swat updates, DON'T DO IT! I'm now stuck with being unable to update, upgrade, or remove anything because it is always talking about mesa be dependent on libdrm-nouveau2 and not letting me install it.
Anyone else have issues with it yet?
Anyone else have issues with it yet?
| I've only had headache after headache. |
Sounds like just about every Linux experience I've ever had.
| Sounds like just about every Linux experience I've ever had. |
Yeah, But linux has some good games to download. I always liked those tiny tanks.
Yeah that's why in the "rate Windows OS" thread I stated I would never switch from Windows. I have way too much invested on steam and other software to do that.
closed account (S6k9GNh0)
I use Arch Linux with native steam without issues. Big picture mode and in-game overlay works flawlessly almost (clear issues displayed in console but nothing that hinders the result). Some of the games have rather buggy OpenGL renderers though. My GTX680 powers through most of it.
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| Linux in its entirety, or anything for that matter, is not for noobs. |
Complete misconception. I've used several and know from experience that Mandriva (formerly Mandrake), Fedora (formerly Red Hat), Debian, Knoppix, and Ubuntu (just to name a few) are fairly noob friendly while Gentoo isn't so much.
Ubuntu is positively not noob friendly.
I tried it out because people sold me on the idea that it was all GUI'd up and very easily customizable and intuitive, etc etc. Turned out to be rubbish. I was hitting problems after 2 weeks with no obvious solution, and had to seek online help. The help I got was serious command-line fu that would have taken me days or weeks to figure out on my own.
Considering that it was considered the most user friendly distro (at the time), I doubt the other distros are any better.
I tried it out because people sold me on the idea that it was all GUI'd up and very easily customizable and intuitive, etc etc. Turned out to be rubbish. I was hitting problems after 2 weeks with no obvious solution, and had to seek online help. The help I got was serious command-line fu that would have taken me days or weeks to figure out on my own.
Considering that it was considered the most user friendly distro (at the time), I doubt the other distros are any better.
Noob-friendly is definitely subjective. If I have to open up a command-line more than once a day, that's when I have a problem.
Ubuntu was the first Linux distro I used and until I tried Debian/Fedora/Mandriva I never had to open a command line. Under Ubuntu I just used their Applications to do updates and upgrades. Now though I do use the terminal for everything as I compile/link all my code by hand, worth with databases (MySQL mostly) in terminal, etc.
closed account (S6k9GNh0)
Ubuntu: Where if you delete things randomly or enter in commands you don't understand, the system may not work. What a shocker.
They literally provide you with dedicated applications so that you never have to use a console.
My first Linux distro with Gentoo since it forced me to understand the layout of the system I was using. While there are better alternatives, I thought this would have also thrown errors and problems my way that I would have to solve myself. This was in 2004... yet it worked almost out of the box per instructions on the side of the box.
Apparently, understanding the device you're using is out of the question to some.
They literally provide you with dedicated applications so that you never have to use a console.
My first Linux distro with Gentoo since it forced me to understand the layout of the system I was using. While there are better alternatives, I thought this would have also thrown errors and problems my way that I would have to solve myself. This was in 2004... yet it worked almost out of the box per instructions on the side of the box.
Apparently, understanding the device you're using is out of the question to some.
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| Ubuntu: Where if you delete things randomly or enter in commands you don't understand, the system may not work. What a shocker. |
Who said anything about deleting random files or entering random commands?
Two of the biggest problems that I can remember came from trying to hook up an external drive and trying to download a program that was not in the source repo. Two things that are fairly commonplace.
| They literally provide you with dedicated applications so that you never have to use a console. |
Which is all fine and good until you want to run something they don't provide. That's when things start to fall apart and you have to spend hours fixing a problem you never should have had in the first place.
| Apparently, understanding the device you're using is out of the question to some. |
For noobs, yes. It is entirely out of the question.
Noobs by definition do not understand the device. If they understood the device, they wouldn't be noobs. Hence why no Linux distro is noob friendly.
closed account (S6k9GNh0)
By noob, I think to myself of my parents, who just recently learned that they can click and drag a window, not a programmer who who uses a computer regularly, which I believe should be more than enough overkill in experience to run Linux.
If there is something that Ubuntu doesn't provide through a GUI, submit a bug and tell them to make one for you. Yes, it's as simple as that. What problem are you even talking about?
Also, hooking up an external drive on Ubuntu is about as simple as it gets because of hotplugging. It just pops up automagically. Even on Arch Linux I have this working and it works out of the box for Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva, and CentOS.
It's not coincidence that the system just breaks magically out of nowhere. It's like a child knocking over milk and blaming the chair she was sitting in.
I'm not a genius by far but I ran Linux when I was 12 on my Dell B110 with Gentoo. It cannot be that noob unfriendly. There's tons of documentation all over the place to accomplish anything you want, most of it being obvious in the first place.
If there is something that Ubuntu doesn't provide through a GUI, submit a bug and tell them to make one for you. Yes, it's as simple as that. What problem are you even talking about?
Also, hooking up an external drive on Ubuntu is about as simple as it gets because of hotplugging. It just pops up automagically. Even on Arch Linux I have this working and it works out of the box for Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva, and CentOS.
It's not coincidence that the system just breaks magically out of nowhere. It's like a child knocking over milk and blaming the chair she was sitting in.
I'm not a genius by far but I ran Linux when I was 12 on my Dell B110 with Gentoo. It cannot be that noob unfriendly. There's tons of documentation all over the place to accomplish anything you want, most of it being obvious in the first place.
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| If there is something that Ubuntu doesn't provide through a GUI, submit a bug and tell them to make one for you. Yes, it's as simple as that |
I suppose I could do that. But why bother when there's already 2 other fully functioning OSs where I don't have to deal with that?
| What problem are you even talking about? |
I've ranted about it before.
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/unices/18514/4/#msg98069
| Also, hooking up an external drive on Ubuntu is about as simple as it gets because of hotplugging. It just pops up automagically. |
Yes that works great. Until it doesn't. Which happened to me (see above link).
| It's not coincidence that the system just breaks magically out of nowhere. |
I can tell you this:
- I hate the commandline (or at least, I hate using it unless I absolutely have to). So I avoided it at all costs when in Ubuntu. In fact the only time I even touched the terminal was when trying to fix something that had already gone wrong.
- Everything I did on the system was done through GUI tools like Synaptic (except for when I was attempting to fix stuff).
- I like to think I know enough to know when I'm doing something potentially dangerous. Though I didn't consider upgrading/installing programs to be dangerous.
- Upgrading/installing programs turned out to be dangerous. I frequently has bad package versions and/or broken packages installed, and it was extraordinarily difficult to 'downgrade' to a version that was previously working, because each package had 3 other dependencies that also had to be downgraded.
- Note again these problems occurred without dicking around with random files, and with using the guided interface.
- Attempting to install something that you got from anywhere other than the source repo (ie: through Synaptic) is crazy dangerous -- which again I did not expect because it's so trivial on other OS's.
- My problems were not obscure... and I'm willing to wager that at least 90% of Ubuntu users have had issues with broken packages at some point (can you honestly tell me you've never had a similar experience?). Though I can't say that with certainty. A google search shows that it by no means is a rare problem. Maybe you're right and all of us are doing something wrong and breaking something -- but then that's a terrible UI design if it's so easy to break.
Setting up a 4G modem was simpler for me on Ubuntu than Windows 7.
Ubuntu:
1. plug in the modem
2. open the network config tool
3. add a new connecton, next, enter the PIN, next, done.
4. enjoy wireless Internet
Windows:
1. plug in the modem
2. modem not detected, nothing happens
3. aaah, there is a CD attached to the modem - insert it
4. oh, there is a setup program, un it, next, next, enter PIN, next
5. setup completed, but still can't connect
6. look for help on the Internet
7. looks like the driver on the cd was outdated
8. download the new driver
9. finally it works
Which one was more noob friendly?
Ubuntu:
1. plug in the modem
2. open the network config tool
3. add a new connecton, next, enter the PIN, next, done.
4. enjoy wireless Internet
Windows:
1. plug in the modem
2. modem not detected, nothing happens
3. aaah, there is a CD attached to the modem - insert it
4. oh, there is a setup program, un it, next, next, enter PIN, next
5. setup completed, but still can't connect
6. look for help on the Internet
7. looks like the driver on the cd was outdated
8. download the new driver
9. finally it works
Which one was more noob friendly?
Looks like Ubuntu was more noob friendly in that case.
But that certainly is not typical, from my experience.
But that certainly is not typical, from my experience.
closed account (S6k9GNh0)
Honestly, you blame it entirely on on the package manager, claiming the package manager is bad... yet you have to manually find and download each package in windows, generally through a closed-source installer that probably contains spyware and adware. The logic... where is it? There is no security at all.
Linux "fan-boys" don't bash Microsoft products because of the interface, they bash it because of how insecure it is and how inflexible it is to the user. You have it their way or not at all.
Also, you're saying you never have issues installing a Windows application? Really?
Linux "fan-boys" don't bash Microsoft products because of the interface, they bash it because of how insecure it is and how inflexible it is to the user. You have it their way or not at all.
Also, you're saying you never have issues installing a Windows application? Really?
I installed 3D Studio MAX on Vista and then had to go searching for the patch that wasn't made obvious on the discreet site. I use both Vista and Ubuntu and honestly, while Ubuntu does give me headaches in some regards, I still love using it more than Vista. Vista is constantly just restarting itself when it wants to update even if I'm in the middle of programming or playing something. While Ubuntu lets me decide to when I want to update so that I can finish programming or doing what I need to get done.
| Honestly, you blame it entirely on on the package manager, claiming the package manager is bad... |
When I make no apparent user errors and it gives me bad packages, that's the only conclusion I can come to. Though there may have been user error. So it might not be entirely the package manager.
| yet you have to manually find and download each package in windows, generally through a closed-source installer |
No you don't. Installers are typically bundled with their dependencies. Run the installer and it gives you everything you need. I never have to go searching for dependencies for any installed program.
Source code libs, however, are another story. Admittedly, Linux was much better in that area.
| that probably contains spyware and adware |
Only if you install stuff that's likely to have spyware or adware. Granted that's not obvious to noobs, but it's pretty easy for me to recognize what programs are trustworthy and what aren't.
Besides. That's not an issue with Windows, that's an issue with whatever program you're using. The same thing could be true of Linux programs... it just isn't because nobody targets Linux with malicious intent (See next section where I respond to your "insecure" comment).
Simply providing the source does not guarantee the program is safe. How often do you scour source to a new program looking for malicious code before running it? I'm guessing never.
| they bash it because of how insecure it is and how inflexible it is to the user. |
Insecure... maybe. I don't think the blame for insecurity lies on actual security holes in the software (Linux has those too), but more that it's just more popular so more people target it to look for exploits. Also the typical Windows user is likely to be less computer savvy and therefore easier to sucker into downloading/running the necessary exploits.
And what do you mean by inflexible? What can you do on Ubuntu that you can't do on Windows?
| Also, you're saying you never have issues installing a Windows application? Really? |
Yes. Really. I can't remember the last time I had install troubles on Windows. Maybe the programs I install are just simpler and more easy-going than the ones you have? What's the last program you tried to install on Windows that gave you trouble?
And admittedly I don't upgrade my hardware very much, which is probably where you're more likely to have issues. I think the only thing I've replaced on this comp since I bought it was the keyboard.
| BHXSpecter wrote: |
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| Vista is constantly just restarting itself when it wants to update even if I'm in the middle of programming or playing something. |
I'm not a fan of Vista. Win7 is much better.
But I'm pretty sure you can turn that off, regardless. Win7 hasn't bugged me to do an update or interrupted me with a restart ever (that I can remember, anyway). Adobe, on the other hand... bugs me constantly. Curses!
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