switching from linux to microsoft
| Amount of experience is unrelated to how comfy something is. |
That sounds like a leap of faith. If you have experience driving, you're more likely to be comfortable with driving than someone who just stepped into a car for the first time.
| First impressions can be nice, but over time -- learning all the dirty details -- one will obtain knowledge-based opinion. |
Sure, but makes it an opinion all the same.
| On the other hand, the first impression could be so horrid that you never look back and thus never find the hidden gem. |
My first impression with Linux was with Ubuntu when I was about.. 14? That lasted about a week before I realized I couldn't play Halo. If I wanted to run certain Windows software, I had to use "Wine". I figured what was the point if I'm just bending over backwards to do the same things I do on Windows.
| The generalization, "you can't", is false. The much more specific "zapshe can't" is easier to accept. |
Its not a generalization, you just can't. To be fair, looking at ProtonDB, I was surprised by the game selection available. But, it still doesn't support many of the games I usually play, which are popular. Some games I searched either weren't in there at all or were classified as buggy/broken.
That leaves a person with no choice but to play the game on VM or a cloud solution, which makes no sense when you can just use Windows.
What you said makes sense though, if you're not a gamer. Or you're a light gamer trying to defend Linux gaming for no reason. In the future, Linux gaming can be viable as they have more titles that runs without issue, but that's not the case right now.
| I won't disparage anyone who uses *nix or Mac as if they are heathens |
I don't hate Linux, I just personally wouldn't use it as my personal OS. It doesn't make sense to me. But Mac? That's where I tend to disparage :P
| Heat is proportional to power consumption, not to clock rate. Also, be careful with undervolting, as it makes the CPU less stable. |
Exactly, that's why undervolting works so well. CPU stabilization is easy to maintain, most manufacturers ship out laptops with the CPU being overfeed power. I've undervolted my CPU on every gaming laptop I've had, not a single issue ever and it takes about an hour to do.
| You didn't really answer the question. |
I think I did? Two different CPUs can take in the same power and achieve completely different levels of performance. Knowing this, there is no power to performance ratio. Which means as long as you allow the laptop to have a higher spec CPU, it can compare to a desktop CPU.
| There actually is a 3950X laptop, but the CPU is underclocked. |
How about GPU? For gaming? And I don't have an AMD CPU, but I assume they're also overclockable.
For reference on a top end laptop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyhsWXCrToc
| Obviously, but the prices of the individual components factor into the price of the complete system. That was my point. |
True to an extent, but it really depends on the company your buying from. Just like any other computer, the price can vary significantly based on the brand.
Either way, for me, video editing and gaming is super fast on my laptop. And if I had a more powerful desktop, it wouldn't outweigh the convenience of having a portable laptop that I can take with me anywhere. If I had a separate desktop and laptop, it would be a pain to keep both up to date with the data I use, especially with large files and particular settings that I would need to set twice.
Small side story: My friend is going on a trip for a couple weeks, and they're debating taking their computer since its a full desktop. Wouldn't have even been something to consider if they owned a laptop. A low end laptop just won't cut it for gaming or powerful work on the go.
While I'd prefer to use a monitor than my laptop screen just because of the size, my laptop screen has great calibration and runs at 240Hz, making it very usable.
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| Two different CPUs can take in the same power and achieve completely different levels of performance. |
| How about GPU? |
| And I don't have an AMD CPU, but I assume they're also overclockable. |
| True to an extent, but it really depends on the company your buying from. Just like any other computer, the price can vary significantly based on the brand. |
| And if I had a more powerful desktop, it wouldn't outweigh the convenience of having a portable laptop that I can take with me anywhere. |
| Wouldn't have even been something to consider if they owned a laptop. |
| A low end laptop just won't cut it for gaming or powerful work on the go. |
| If they're different micro/architectures, kind of. |
Different generations, different models, etc. all contribute to the performance of the chip.
| So, how would a laptop manufacturer manage to get the same performance out of, say, an 11th gen Intel CPU while fitting it in a more restricted power and thermal budget? |
I'm not saying they can get the same performance out of the same chip, but they can get similar performance to the chip by having a higher end CPU in the laptop that is restricted in power.
| It's a GTX 2060 so it's nominally comparable to my 1060, but who knows whether the cooling can keep up once it gets going. |
My last laptop had a GTX 1060 in it, I upgraded for better gaming performance. This current laptop has an RTX 2080 super max-q. Yes, the max-q means its specifically limited in performance to be put into a laptop.
I've overclocked my GPU as opposed to my undervolting on the CPU. I've actually NEVER had a GPU over heat on a laptop before. Its always only the CPU. I have a key on my keyboard that changes colors based on temps, and my GPU barely hits 80-90 degrees, even in the most demanding games I've played.
The only issue I had with overclocking my GPU was that Warzone would occasionally crash, lowered the overclock a tad and it never happened again.
| I'd honestly feel uncomfortable running an overclocked Ryzen on a portable PSU. |
You can undervolt and overclock to an extent.
| That will just mean the brand will add a sizeable chunk on top of the cost. The total price of the individual components still gives you a lower bound of the price of the assembled machine. |
That really isn't always true. I do get a Lenovo discount as an affiliate, and even without that they run a lot of sales. I've done the math many times, and buying a prebuild can often come out cheaper than building it yourself. You simply don't get the heavy discounts that manufacturers get.
I've seen a lot of videos do comparisons between certain prebuilds and their individual components, finding that it was either a comparable price or just plain cheaper to buy the prebuilt. It isn't a cut and dry thing where the cheapest you can get is the total price of all the components.
| it's simply not true that "the days of laptops being less capable than desktops are over" |
At what level of performance would you need to reach in order to not find a laptop that is equally as powerful? You claimed no laptop is as powerful as your desktop, but I know there are more powerful CPUs in laptops, which could potentially offer similar performance.
This is not to mention that the good AMD CPUs are relatively new, and laptops that are incorporating them are still being released.
| Their hardware is still weaker, especially if you control for price |
All I mean is that you don't need a desktop computer in order to achieve great performance. My laptop tops a lot of desktop setups in terms of performance, and its not even close to the most powerful laptop out there. A desktop computer won't be more powerful than a laptop just because of power consumptions, you would need genuinely better components.
| Are you so sure your friend has never and will never think "there's no way I could have done this if this was a laptop"? |
My laptop is more powerful than their desktop and has more features. Their desktop doesn't even have a wifi adapter which comes standard in all laptops. I don't know what they could possibly think they could do on their desktop that they couldn't on a laptop.
You can have the same peripherals and even have the laptop far away, the same as a desktop, if you wanted to. In that regard, you could overclock your components and have a cooling setup for the laptop where ever you decide to store it.
So really, if you have the choice between a desktop and an equally powerful laptop, what could possibly be the downside of picking the laptop? Assuming good thermal performance as well.
| The work part isn't necessarily true. It depends on exactly what you do and your connection, but I've found RDPing into my home computer to be extremely practical. OpenVPN + No-IP (or any other DDNS) + garbage laptop and I can take my home network with me anywhere I go |
If it runs smoothly than that seems pretty smart. But I'd still rather just have the actual performance on-board rather than wirelessly connecting into it. If any problem occurred, its possible you can't even restart the computer because it would cut the connection with the possibility that you can't connect back into it.
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| I'm not saying they can get the same performance out of the same chip, but they can get similar performance to the chip by having a higher end CPU in the laptop that is restricted in power. |
| A desktop computer won't be more powerful than a laptop just because of power consumptions, you would need genuinely better components. |
| Their desktop doesn't even have a wifi adapter which comes standard in all laptops. |
| So really, if you have the choice between a desktop and an equally powerful desktop, what could possibly be the downside of picking the laptop? Assuming good thermal performance as well. |
| If any problem occurred, its possible you can't even restart the computer because it would cut the connection with the possibility that you can't connect back into it. |
It's still not impossible to get locked out, but it's unusual. It's not something you'd use if you're leaving for a long time and you absolutely need access and there's no one home to give you a hand, though.
| The power consumption is changed proportionally to the clock rate. Thus, for the most part but especially true within the same microarchitecture, more performance means more power. Installing a more expensive part and then lowering the power is functionally nearly equivalent to installing a less expensive part. |
You don't have to do anymore than look at CPU sheets meant for laptops:
CPU I HAVE:
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/201837/intel-core-i7-10750h-processor-12m-cache-up-to-5-00-ghz.html
CPU I HAD BEFORE:
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/97185/intel-core-i7-7700hq-processor-6m-cache-up-to-3-80-ghz.html
The CPU I have now has 2 extra cores, goes up in to a higher turbo frequency, and MORE than doubles the i7-7700HQ's XTU benchmark score. Yet, they have similar power draw (at least for base clock speeds).
This is also not to mention that if I had gotten the i9:
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/201838/intel-core-i9-10980hk-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-30-ghz.html
The power draw would be higher - laptops are capable of giving the extra power for CPUs that need it.
Are you're saying a laptop CANNOT provide extra power and adequate cooling for better CPUs? Or are you claiming that two CPUs given the same power draw cannot have different levels of performance? I don't get what you're saying.
| Better performance does indeed require better components and those components invariably need more power. More power needs better cooling, which is only achievable with more space and weight. |
Better components don't inherently need more power, as I showed with the difference between my current and older CPU. Better cooling? Sure. And I think laptops have come a long way in those terms, using vapor chambers and great thermal compound.
| If you're getting a desktop you're not planning on going anywhere with it, so running a cable to it is perfectly practical. |
You're right, but a wifi card can come in handy. I don't remember the exact details right now, but they had an issue that could have been easier to solve had they had a wifi card. It was the only reason I found out their desktop didn't have one.
| For the same performance, the desktop will be cheaper. The desktop will also be easier to maintain and have its parts replaced. The desktop can easily support unusual hardware configurations such as multiple GPUs, large internal storage arrays, lots of monitors, and other weird hardware. In fact, just to fuck around, on Friday we put together a workstation with six portrait monitors at the office; I found it a bit overwhelming. |
A desktop will probably be cheaper for the same performance, sure. My laptops typically have multiple GPUs, the one attached to the intel CPU, and the dedicated one.
If that's not enough, you can always attach an external GPU via thunderbolt. I don't think you'd be able to configure it to use the external and internal GPUs, but you could possibly achieve dual GPU usage by buying an already configured dual GPU setup that you can hook up via thunderbolt.
As for the other things you mentioned, those seem like niches. A laptop's portability and battery advantage is likely more handy than being able to hook up 6 monitors or have 100 terabytes of storage. Even on a laptop, hooking up 3 monitors is usually supported. And my laptop has 2TB of storage on it which I believe is not the limit.
| It's still not impossible to get locked out, but it's unusual. It's not something you'd use if you're leaving for a long time and you absolutely need access and there's no one home to give you a hand, though. |
Doesn't sound terrible, but still clearly limited compared to having a portable laptop with all the data and power you need on the go.
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| Are you're saying a laptop CANNOT provide extra power and adequate cooling for better CPUs? |
| Better components don't inherently need more power, [...] Better cooling? Sure. |
| If that's not enough, you can always attach an external GPU via thunderbolt. |
| A laptop's portability and battery advantage is likely more handy than being able to hook up 6 monitors or have 100 terabytes of storage. |
By the way, you can put batteries on a desktop. Mine runs for a little under an hour. At work we have ones that can power several workstations for one or two hours, and the computer closet and Internet connection for six hours.
| still clearly limited compared to having a portable laptop with all the data and power you need on the go. |
| Why would it be any more valid to compare parts released several months apart? |
That was my previous point, you may have to go for a higher spec CPU, but you can achieve similar performance to most desktops. Sure, you won't have the most powerful computer money can buy, but how far off will you be? I use cpu.userbenchmark.com to get an idea of different CPU performance, and it shows that laptop CPUs don't have to be lightweights.
| So they don't need more power but they do need more cooling? |
Hence the vapor chamber and thermal paste. My old laptop was no where near as powerful as my current one, but this one runs cooler!
| There's all sorts of things you can attach to a laptop to make it more capable, and they generally a) make the complete system less portable, and b) should make the owner question whether they really needed a laptop. |
A separate GPU is something you'd likely keep at home for gaming and video editing. Then, when you just need the laptop on the go, you probably won't need the external GPU for whatever you're doing.
If you do need the raw power on the go, you can simply buy a better laptop that has that power.
| That those features add little value to you doesn't change the fact that they exist. |
Yea, but it also isn't taken advantage of by many people either. The most I've seen was someone with 3 monitors hooked up to emulate a wide screen they can't afford. Needing more than 3 monitors hooked up is really a niche thing. Wanting to take your computer outside or even to another room in the house? That's something a lot of people encounter.
My friend left today for their trip, their computer couldn't fit in the car due to space issues!
| By the way, you can put batteries on a desktop. Mine runs for a little under an hour. |
And then what? Unplug the computer and convince your friends it's running on will power?
| That was my previous point, you may have to go for a higher spec CPU, but you can achieve similar performance to most desktops. |
| My old laptop was no where near as powerful as my current one, but this one runs cooler! |
| Yea, but it also isn't taken advantage of by many people either. |
| And then what? |
| So, I ask again: what magic do you think mobile CPUs are pulling that lets them do the same work desktop CPUs do while using less power |
We are talking in circles, I don't know what I have yet to explain. I think I've proved through examples that different CPUs can run at similar power but have very different performance. There doesn't have to be magic, its just different design. Even crappy low-end CPUs require a certain amount of power to operate. Just because a better CPU out there exists doesn't mean that it will automatically require more power. Do I have to say what CPU manufactures can do specifically for the statement to be true?
Not only that, but a lot of laptops (like mine) are great at dissipating heat. They're not working miracles, but it always depends on the design created to dissipate heat which depends on the CPU used.
| You asked what advantages desktops have over laptops, so I'm unsure what your point is with this. |
Well, advantages aren't all created equal. You can have an advantage of being taller in a fight. But being immortal? That advantage would be a lot more beneficial!
| Are you saying that if you wanted to, say, have dozens of terabytes of storage on your computer you still wouldn't buy a desktop |
If I only "wanted" and didn't actually need that extra space, I'd go for a laptop because of those extra benefits. If I REALLY needed that extra space, its highly doubtful I need it at all times and for it all to be super fast. I could simply buy external storage that my laptop can be hooked up to while it sits on my desk.
Now, if I take my laptop somewhere, I don't have all that bloated information on board. And if I need that data on the go, there's nothing stopping me from packing it with the laptop.
| And then you don't lose your work if there's a blackout. Duh. What, do you think batteries are pointless unless you can move the device they power? |
I believe I've only been in a black out twice. Once because of a storm, another time because someone rammed their car into something. Of those, only one of them affected my home - and that was years ago. Plus I've only been using laptops for a long time, so the idea of a black out making you lose data never even crossed my mind.
Either way, that's a convenience that comes by just having a laptop. This is not to mention that just running out of juice in the battery won't instantly close the computer and make you lose all your work like in a desktop. It makes sure there's enough power to do a proper shutdown.
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I've seen many laptops with dead batteries. You just keep the charger connected when you want to use it.
Zapshe I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm curious what you're saying. Do you believe that any serious gamer would now be satisfied with the performance of your laptop, or that you're satisfied?
I know personally once upon a time storage was a major concern, I was always trying to store more information in less bytes. Then it changed, I haven't personally been concern with how much available space I have in years. If you asked me how much disk space I have available on this machine, I would have no idea and need to look it up.
Do you think it is has gotten to the place where people shouldn't care about performance because it is always adequate with a laptop (granted your talking about a high quality laptop)?
I know personally once upon a time storage was a major concern, I was always trying to store more information in less bytes. Then it changed, I haven't personally been concern with how much available space I have in years. If you asked me how much disk space I have available on this machine, I would have no idea and need to look it up.
Do you think it is has gotten to the place where people shouldn't care about performance because it is always adequate with a laptop (granted your talking about a high quality laptop)?
> it is always adequate with a laptop (granted your talking about a high quality laptop)?
With a high-end laptop, performance is adequate for personal use.
But not adequate for a (high performance) server.
With a high-end laptop, performance is adequate for personal use.
But not adequate for a (high performance) server.
| I've seen many laptops with dead batteries. You just keep the charger connected when you want to use it. |
I've seen cats with no hind legs. I keep the charger connected if its on my desk, but its convenient to know that if I'm going out, I don't *need* to bring the charger if it won't be longer than about 5 hours.
Also, many laptops, including mine, have a mode where the battery wont charge all the way. It's meant to protect the battery from being at 100% all the time by keeping it between 55-60% while it stays plugged in. Then, if you want to go out, it only takes about 10 minutes to charge it all the way to 100% before you leave.
| Do you believe that any serious gamer would now be satisfied with the performance of your laptop, or that you're satisfied? |
There is no serious gamer that would even notice the difference between a desktop and adequately powerful laptop if they weren't told.
I'm a competitive gamer, and I don't even know what game I'd have to pull up for my laptop to struggle at 1080p. In fact, I sometimes have to cap my frame rate because it'll be more than double my screen's refresh rate.
One of the reasons I upgraded was because my GTX1060 on my old gaming laptop couldn't hit the FPS I wanted on Warzone. But with this laptop, Warzone is smooth as butter on high settings. The same is true with video editing, I haven't had a single issue, the performance has been great.
If you're video editing in 4K, you'll need a better CPU than mine has, but there are plenty of laptops out there that are better equipped.
| But not adequate for a (high performance) server. |
Many desktops aren't adequate for a high performance server... You'd have to build the desktop with maintaining a server in mind.
Living in the US I found this article interesting
Three months, 700 steps: Why it takes so long to produce a computer chip
By Jeanne Whalen
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/07/making-semiconductors-is-hard/
Three months, 700 steps: Why it takes so long to produce a computer chip
By Jeanne Whalen
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/07/making-semiconductors-is-hard/
There is no serious gamer that would even notice the difference between a desktop and adequately powerful laptop if they weren't told. you will laugh, but the one place you get a fail here is that most laptops no longer have a wired network connection. The lag created by brain farts in the routers is notable in fast paced games.
and I have had plenty of battery fails in teams too, after 2 hours the laptop guy 'oh noes my battery is drained' is a frequent problem due to the laptop being designed to run notepad when they benchmark the 25 hour battery life but only gives an hour or two top tier games.
the # 3 fail is overheating. But to be fair, poorly set up desktops do this too.
| jonnin wrote: |
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| But to be fair, poorly set up desktops do this too. |
Yes -- a view at a Dell desktop: https://youtu.be/4DMg6hUudHE
Desktop, like that Dell, are similar to laptops; it is near impossible to replace components. Whether you ever do that or rather buy a whole new is a choice you are free to make, but customizable desktop does offer more choices.
Prebuilts, particularly laptops, are sold with Windows non-transferable OEM license? If yes, then you buy a new license with every new system. Well, you can buy support for (Enterprise) Linux too.
| the one place you get a fail here is that most laptops no longer have a wired network connection |
I've actually never owned a laptop without an ethernet port - especially gaming laptops. From my own experience, I've found that an ethernet cable is only slightly more reliable than a wireless connection.
| I have had plenty of battery fails in teams too, after 2 hours the laptop guy 'oh noes my battery is drained' |
You can't actually get the max performance of your laptop if it isn't plugged in. Most if not all gaming laptops will limit the power the computer can use if its not plugged in, this is to enhance battery life.
You can usually stop this from happening by changing a lot of settings, but it won't be exactly the same. Always preferable to have the laptop plugged in.
| the # 3 fail is overheating |
There are two side effects of overheating. The computer either shutdowns from being too hot, or the performance dips because of the heat.
Either way, I've never had it happen to me (except for one time when my laptop fan was unplugged!). People really need to read reviews before buying things like this. If a laptop is known to easily overheat, its going to get a bad reputation from reviewers and consumers pretty fast.
I'm usually impressed by how much a little undervolting can do for thermals. I've never had a GPU overheat... Ever. I always overclock my GPU. The CPU is always the culprit, and undervolting works very well.
| Prebuilts, particularly laptops, are sold with Windows non-transferable OEM license? If yes, then you buy a new license with every new system. Well, you can buy support for (Enterprise) Linux too. |
Unless you're buying a barebones laptop, almost all laptops come with Windows pre-installed. You never have to pay for Windows individually.
Also, Windows is insanely easy to pirate if you're into that. When I had to reinstall Windows on an old computer, for some reason it went stupid and it didn't think there was a license. In about 10 minutes that was taken care of.
No need to pirate Windows, you can use it without a license. It will only show its popups, but that does not annoy you much.
| keskiverto wrote: |
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| Desktop, like that Dell, are similar to laptops; it is near impossible to replace components. |
I beg to differ. With my old Power Mac G5, it's really easy to replace components, with a few exceptions. I've probably replaced/upgraded most of its insides, except the chassis and some of the hardware.
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