College: yay or nay?
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I want to become an indie developer. You probably get these threads a lot, but I want an unbiased answer: how hard would it be? I can't imagine having to go to college to be good at C++; if you're willing enough to spend hours a day learning the ins and outs I'm sure you could be just as good if not better than someone who goes to college. But like everyone knows, 99% of jobs out there has the degree in CS a requirement.
So my question is how HARD is it to make a living off of indie gave development. Not how hard it is to program the games, but the actual selling and marketing of the games you make. Getting together a team. Etc.
Is there anyone out there with experience on this to help?
EDIT: The only reason I want to stay away from college is the cost. If I really have to I'll go without hesitation, but I'd like to explore all the different options.
So my question is how HARD is it to make a living off of indie gave development. Not how hard it is to program the games, but the actual selling and marketing of the games you make. Getting together a team. Etc.
Is there anyone out there with experience on this to help?
EDIT: The only reason I want to stay away from college is the cost. If I really have to I'll go without hesitation, but I'd like to explore all the different options.
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I think it would be best to get a CS degree, apply to an indie studio, then one day create your own or run that studio.
AFAIK, people get end to indie development as more of a side/hobby thing, not really as a main source of income.
Nay. Only do it if you covet the degree. Otherwise bust out games now. Didn't the Portal team actually come from indie guys that did it as a project? Don't recall if they even had college before getting a job making portal.
I would say that getting a CS degree would probably be better in the long run as it provides a more stable income - if your indie idea does not work well. (I would just like to point out that I am not saying you cannot do it, I just do not know your skills, etc.)
According to the U.S. Department of Labor, almost 70% of jobs in the nation (currently) require a college degree. Getting a job is hard enough, no sense closing all those doors by not getting a degree. Besides, a degree in CS can apply to a whole lot of computer related jobs, not just game dev. It will make your life a whole lot easier.
College may not be as expensive as you think.
Estimated net cost of attending the University of Florida, and financial aid.
https://npc.collegeboard.org/student/app/ufl
http://cise.ufl.edu/academics/undergrad/
Estimated net cost of attending the University of Florida, and financial aid.
https://npc.collegeboard.org/student/app/ufl
http://cise.ufl.edu/academics/undergrad/
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Really? I have $100k in debt due to loans and just saw a thing on CNN saying a large percent of graduates will wind up with $100k+ debt.
Did you get financial aid? How much was your tuition?
I'm in California, and I'm currently trying to decide which college to transfer to. At one of them, I got a scholarship, and the other not. At the one where I got the scholarship, it would cost me a total of about $4,000/y after financial aid, for everything including housing, food, tuition and all other costs. The other school would be about $8,000/y for the same. If I work part time and over the summer, I could probably come out of it with no debt either way. This estimate assumes a high housing cost. If I were able to get into a room in a house or a shared room for cheap, I could save even more money. I went to a community college for two years before transferring which also helped me save some money. I would recommend this path. Your chances of getting into a top university afterwards will be high, and your high school grades will not matter.
Surprisingly even my friend who made more money than me last year, about $26,000/y, and has about $10,000 in the bank, qualified for about the same amount of financial aid as me.
From the UF cost and aid estimator, it seams like it would be pretty much the same case if I went there and lived in Florida. If you're a strait A student, and you have a good story, you could probably even make it through college for free from financial aid and scholarship funds.
I'm in California, and I'm currently trying to decide which college to transfer to. At one of them, I got a scholarship, and the other not. At the one where I got the scholarship, it would cost me a total of about $4,000/y after financial aid, for everything including housing, food, tuition and all other costs. The other school would be about $8,000/y for the same. If I work part time and over the summer, I could probably come out of it with no debt either way. This estimate assumes a high housing cost. If I were able to get into a room in a house or a shared room for cheap, I could save even more money. I went to a community college for two years before transferring which also helped me save some money. I would recommend this path. Your chances of getting into a top university afterwards will be high, and your high school grades will not matter.
Surprisingly even my friend who made more money than me last year, about $26,000/y, and has about $10,000 in the bank, qualified for about the same amount of financial aid as me.
From the UF cost and aid estimator, it seams like it would be pretty much the same case if I went there and lived in Florida. If you're a strait A student, and you have a good story, you could probably even make it through college for free from financial aid and scholarship funds.
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Yeah I had aid. I think that is the problem, too many people (due to our economy) are having to rely on loans to pay for classes so they graduate with large debt. That is my problem, I have large debt and my current circumstances make it impossible for me to pay it off. Frustrating, if I knew then what I know now I would have never bothered with college. Only benefit I found was getting tons of great reference books from each course.
| BHXSpecter wrote: |
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| Really? I have $100k in debt due to loans and just saw a thing on CNN saying a large percent of graduates will wind up with $100k+ debt. |
| BHXSpecter wrote: |
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| That is my problem, I have large debt and my current circumstances make it impossible for me to pay it off. Frustrating, if I knew then what I know now I would have never bothered with college. |
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closed account (3qX21hU5)
I kind of find it annoying also that you recommend people to skip college just b ecause you weren't able to find a job after going to college.
I highly doubt you got finacial aid when going to college since the tuition for Devry as of 2012 for Game Programmer (Which I think you majored in) while living on campus is $104,035... That is in 2012 also which I believe college expenses have been on the rise with inflation and the economy. If you didn't live in the dorms it would be $77,635 and online classes would be $73,179. That is factoring in extras like course books, Student Injury and Sickness Insurance Charge.
Otherwise the total is $69,779
http://www.devry.edu/content/dam/devry/d/US-Catalog-tuition-chart.pdf
I highly doubt you got finacial aid when going to college since the tuition for Devry as of 2012 for Game Programmer (Which I think you majored in) while living on campus is $104,035... That is in 2012 also which I believe college expenses have been on the rise with inflation and the economy. If you didn't live in the dorms it would be $77,635 and online classes would be $73,179. That is factoring in extras like course books, Student Injury and Sickness Insurance Charge.
Otherwise the total is $69,779
http://www.devry.edu/content/dam/devry/d/US-Catalog-tuition-chart.pdf
It looks like $69,779 is the cost of tuition alone at Devry. In comparison, 4 years of tuition at the University of Florida is only about $27,000.
At my community college, tuition is about $1,400 a year.
Two years at a community college and 2 at UF might cost around $16,300 in tuition if you do not receive financial aid. That's pretty cheap in comparison to Devry.
At my community college, tuition is about $1,400 a year.
Two years at a community college and 2 at UF might cost around $16,300 in tuition if you do not receive financial aid. That's pretty cheap in comparison to Devry.
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Move to Poland. Universities/Colleges here are mostly free and quality of education you can get at the best ones is usually much higher than quality of cheap colleges in USA. Students of some of them often beat MIT/Stanford at coding contests like Google Code Jam or Top Coder.
what would be the difference between usa uk poland russian and indian colleges for coding I wonder?
Glad my uni education is sort of free :)
Glad my uni education is sort of free :)
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college is fun. I am in a comp sci program and have learned a lot, but even more from teaching myself. If you have the opportunity to go to college I would suggest you take it. It is soooo much fun!
I would have done my local college, but they have it set up (at least at that time) so if you wanted to their game programming degree you had to already have a BS in CS or equivalent as one of the requirements to get in. Then had to have 3 letters of recommendation on top of that. I've not bothered to see if they ever changed it.
I did have a job set up to pay it back. I was to start working at Walmart like I had before I went into college, but (and pay attention since you seem to keep missing this fact) my son's health forced me to quit my job in order to stay home and take care of him. My wife and son are both in wheelchairs and require assistance, my son has a seizure that causes him to stop breathing, has a trach, and feeding tube that require special training to take care of.
Also, BTW, student loans are financial aid. Scholarships, grants, and student loans are all considered financial aid as you can't get any loans unless you file FAFSA forms.
Let me make my point clear as I didn't realize how confusing I had made it from my past rants. I don't blame the colleges, well not all colleges. I do feel colleges, like DeVry, who have their fees way too high, need to be watched and regulated. I blame the loan companies. Sallie Mae and Nelnet, the two I'm fighting now, have received documents showing that I am unable to work due to the medical necessity my son has for me to be with him all day and take care of him. I was told "tell them your circumstances, they will work with you", utter bullshit. I explained my circumstances and suddenly was told I could no longer do deferments due to financial inability to pay and had to pay almost $11k right now to one company. I've looked into it, there are forgiveness programs for those, like my wife and are unable to get a job due to disability, but there are nothing for parents of disabled spouses and children who are unable to work due to becoming the sole care giver for them.
| naraku9333 wrote: |
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| So, your speaking out against college because you took out $100,000 in student loans (which aren't aid BTW) and didn't think ahead as to how you would pay it back? |
I did have a job set up to pay it back. I was to start working at Walmart like I had before I went into college, but (and pay attention since you seem to keep missing this fact) my son's health forced me to quit my job in order to stay home and take care of him. My wife and son are both in wheelchairs and require assistance, my son has a seizure that causes him to stop breathing, has a trach, and feeding tube that require special training to take care of.
Also, BTW, student loans are financial aid. Scholarships, grants, and student loans are all considered financial aid as you can't get any loans unless you file FAFSA forms.
Let me make my point clear as I didn't realize how confusing I had made it from my past rants. I don't blame the colleges, well not all colleges. I do feel colleges, like DeVry, who have their fees way too high, need to be watched and regulated. I blame the loan companies. Sallie Mae and Nelnet, the two I'm fighting now, have received documents showing that I am unable to work due to the medical necessity my son has for me to be with him all day and take care of him. I was told "tell them your circumstances, they will work with you", utter bullshit. I explained my circumstances and suddenly was told I could no longer do deferments due to financial inability to pay and had to pay almost $11k right now to one company. I've looked into it, there are forgiveness programs for those, like my wife and are unable to get a job due to disability, but there are nothing for parents of disabled spouses and children who are unable to work due to becoming the sole care giver for them.
| Move to Poland. Universities/Colleges here are mostly free and quality of education you can get at the best ones is usually much higher than quality of cheap colleges in USA. Students of some of them often beat MIT/Stanford at coding contests like Google Code Jam or Top Coder. |
Not entirely crazy, but I don't fully support your reasoning at the end there.
In Poland, the percentage of students ultimately going to the University is much smaller than most Western countries, partly for socio-economic reasons (large portions of Poland are still very poor), but also because there's much stricter entry requirements.
The result is that those who do get into University, and especially the very specific ones like CS/Informatics, are both very interested and very motivated for their subjects, which is sadly something you don't find in the "University For Everyone" ('UFE') countries like the US and Western-Europe. On top of that, Universities in Poland have a real geek-culture with people trying to outdo each other and taking pride in it, unlike in UFEs where we still mostly find the highschool mentality of "too cool for school".
So, are Polish universities better? I don't know, but I doubt there are significant differences between them and Western countries. However, the requirements and the mentality are completely different. Ultimately, the worth of your degree is determined by you and you alone and the Polish students are getting much more out of it than UFE students.
(Note: University and College definitions differ between countries. Most of Europe doesn't have 'College'; we have secondary until 18 (obligatory), then university afterwards (optional). Don't get strung up on the exact word usage.)
you would learn more about coding from a microsoft course than you would from 3 years at a good uni, well you would be more employable
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