How did the church make a comeback
| Are you suggesting that Religion should not be taken seriously? |
We have to take the effects of people missing the point of it seriously, but religion itself? Yeah, that was never meant to be taken nearly as seriously as people seem to. It's become a "wag the dog" situation with religion taking a lead in (some) societies/social groupings, rather than following.
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| chwsks wrote: |
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| I have always been amazed at how many atheist are biblical-literalist. Liberal Christianity which is over 300 years old has always rejected the idea that the books that make up the bible are historically correct. |
Arguments regarding the bible come about because it's the only documented source of the fundamentals of the Christian faith. If you're talking about Christianity you're talking about one of three sources of information: either the bible, word-or-mouth, or divine intervention.
Not many Christians claim to have personally spoken to God directly, so I don't assume that avenue.
I also tend to give people a little more credit than going along with something simply because other people told them to, so I don't assume their faith is based purely by word of mouth.
So all that really leads is the Bible.
So your post has me a little confused. If your faith is not grounded in the Bible... the only lingering "factual" evidence / documented history of the faith... then how is it grounded? Where do your beliefs come from if not the Bible? Is it just pack mentality?
I'm also a little confused by beliefs in modern religion. Christianity is relatively young to begin with (2000 years is short compared to many other faiths), but to say you believe in a subsect of Christianity that has only been around for 300 years is a little surprising to me.
Do you think Christians had it wrong for 1700 years? What happened 300 years ago that made them change they way they thought? How do you know that change in thinking was correct?
| Your arguments have been said already. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what chwsks posted instead |
Well I am shocked that most christians already know the bible isn't accurate. I've always heard them refer to it as the word of god - what does that then mean?
If I started a new religion tommorrow and leave behind a book like the bible claiming that it is the word of god and then find it being poked full of holes due to inconsistencies then I would be quite shocked to find people still using it as a basis of the new religion I have created in order to continue to follow it.
I'd probably find people still believing in this fake religion of mine even after I let them know that it was not inspired by god or any divine source.
If most christians then know that the bible is riddled with false facts (and don't know to what extent) then why do they still use it - why do they listen to some preacher dragging out a few simple verses form the bible into a 2 hour sermon. They sit there saying men and hallejuah for his sermon which is based on the bible.
They listen to the sermon because the sermon is not about history. Again, you're missing the point entirely.
@ModShop
I am still very interested in hearing some examples of this:
I am still very interested in hearing some examples of this:
| ModShop wrote: |
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| although it's apparently ok for non-religious people to impose their anti-religion views on the religious, but not the other way around |
| darkestfright wrote: |
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| [John 14:6] In Christianity, if you don't accept Jesus you're going to hell. It's literally the only criteria, good deeds have nothing to do with it. |
Are there people who think this is a valid form of reasoning? Probably. There's always been stupid and crazy people. My point is that they're not the majority or even a substantial number.
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| hamsterman wrote: |
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| This thread contains many arguments of the form "bible is wrong, so there can't be a god". In fact, that's kind of the point of the whole thread. This is what is called "taking the bible literally". |
I would agree that the people that make the argument that the "bible is wrong, so there can't be a god" are on dodgy ground in there reasoning but I would also say that they are not necessarily Atheists.
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| [John 14:6] In Christianity, if you don't accept Jesus you're going to hell. It's literally the only criteria, good deeds have nothing to do with it. |
And where does that fact come from again? The bible which has been shown many times to be flawed.
This verse also contradicts the belief structure of many catholics. I've heard many catholics claim that all roads lead to rome (ie all religions lead to god). When asking them to respond to this verse in particular they are either unable to or unwilling to proceed with the debate any further.
Which is it then?
| They listen to the sermon because the sermon is not about history. Again, you're missing the point entirely. |
I've been to many services in the past and understand perfectly well how it works. The preacher bases his sermon on some passage of the bible and then tries to relate it with may analogies to the current world. WHat I don't get is his need to go on about a fairly simple point for 2 hours or more.
Ever noticed how some people fall asleep in church - thats because they already got the point the preacher is trying to make ages ago. I could deliver the same message in less than 5 minutes.
So what point am I exactly missing?
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| zepher wrote: |
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| If most christians then know that the bible is riddled with false facts then why do they still use it |
| I wrote: |
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| you're missing the point |
And now you answer with "sermons are boring". You are missing a lot of points. The one I meant was that bible tells things more interesting than when who did what.
The only time a indoctrinated person renounces their indoctrination isnt when one thing questions their faith but when one thing shakes several ideas all at the same time so theres no foundation to back up their beliefs for example
if you realize the church is just another corrupt power system, you still have your own experiences a group of people who believe in the same thing as you and the good feeling you get from being a christian.
but when you may for example be enjoying the church as a holy space you might find that some event causes you to question your own experiences and your judgment of your friends and this leads to you deciding that the good feeling is just anther form of brainwashing, you may start questioning everything and not relax with just faith anymore...this ex born again guy explains it
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnew.exchristian.net%2F2011%2F10%2Fhow-i-lost-my-faith.html&ei=ci3CUObyH6aa0QXFj4CADQ&usg=AFQjCNEbjlEPF7Ibp32csSB7nypa88QsIQ&sig2=vsfD2CTk7h40rySmCZbOVg
if you realize the church is just another corrupt power system, you still have your own experiences a group of people who believe in the same thing as you and the good feeling you get from being a christian.
but when you may for example be enjoying the church as a holy space you might find that some event causes you to question your own experiences and your judgment of your friends and this leads to you deciding that the good feeling is just anther form of brainwashing, you may start questioning everything and not relax with just faith anymore...this ex born again guy explains it
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnew.exchristian.net%2F2011%2F10%2Fhow-i-lost-my-faith.html&ei=ci3CUObyH6aa0QXFj4CADQ&usg=AFQjCNEbjlEPF7Ibp32csSB7nypa88QsIQ&sig2=vsfD2CTk7h40rySmCZbOVg
funny situation the church of england is in, cos they allowed so many things like evolution and female bishops they have to deal with so many awkward questions as a result, this is why naff all british are christian, the catholics or more so the american gop/btp christian mentality is so strong because to roll with evolution is to crack the dam and a tide of awkward questions will leave ministers and senator manipulators powerless
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| devonrevenge wrote: |
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| funny situation the church of england is in, cos they allowed so many things like evolution and female bishops they have to deal with so many awkward questions as a result, this is why naff all british are christian, the catholics or more so the american gop/btp christian mentality is so strong because to roll with evolution is to crack the dam and a tide of awkward questions will leave ministers and senator manipulators powerless |
Maybe a little.
The Church of England has a mandate from the British government to provide spiritual and pastoral care to any and all who need it. It has a very specific civil responsibility and as such, to fulfil its duty towards all citizens regardless of their actual faith or belief, is remarkably open-minded and tolerant in matters religious.
Whilst this is actually exactly what religion in society is meant for (although largely replaceable now with modern societies, far more interconnected and far more able to communicate than they were when religion's purpose was more clear), the common citizen thinks religion is supposed to be a rigid set of unwavering beliefs, and as such, as the Church of England has accepted such things as evolution and female clergy (in accordance with the broad beliefs of society at large) these citizens have constantly drifted away.
Ironically, being so able to change with the times might turn out to give the Church of England staying power and as other more rigid religions die, the CoE will adapt and change to meet its duty to the citizenry at large.
The Church of England has a mandate from the British government to provide spiritual and pastoral care to any and all who need it. It has a very specific civil responsibility and as such, to fulfil its duty towards all citizens regardless of their actual faith or belief, is remarkably open-minded and tolerant in matters religious.
Whilst this is actually exactly what religion in society is meant for (although largely replaceable now with modern societies, far more interconnected and far more able to communicate than they were when religion's purpose was more clear), the common citizen thinks religion is supposed to be a rigid set of unwavering beliefs, and as such, as the Church of England has accepted such things as evolution and female clergy (in accordance with the broad beliefs of society at large) these citizens have constantly drifted away.
Ironically, being so able to change with the times might turn out to give the Church of England staying power and as other more rigid religions die, the CoE will adapt and change to meet its duty to the citizenry at large.
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| The one I meant was that bible tells things more interesting than when who did what. |
finding a version of a story more intersting than another is a matter of opinion.
however, facts are facts (either wrong or right) and does not depend on ones opinion.
the point is that you cannot refute the wrongs made by the church but continue to believe/follow them as if they are still absolutely correct in all they do and say.
Well if we forget the Bible then we would have to forget Christmas as it is to celebrate the birth of Jesus. If you ignore them then you would have missed out on Christmas gifts and only got a few on your birthday. Religion does bring about a few good things. For example, apparently it gives programmers nothing better to do than debate it rather than program :P.
I'm bowing out of this and getting back to work on my projects as it has become obvious this is a discussion that won't have an end. The end of this thread will only come about when the others get tired of arguing the same points repeatedly like it is going to sway someone's opinion.
I'm bowing out of this and getting back to work on my projects as it has become obvious this is a discussion that won't have an end. The end of this thread will only come about when the others get tired of arguing the same points repeatedly like it is going to sway someone's opinion.
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I must applaud the people that have taken part for not letting the discussion degrade into a slanging match.
I personally think that there is a god but don't believe any of the religions on this planet are his true representatives.
I too am a scientist and believe that science does not proove that god does or does not exist.
Human science is currently very limited in that it cannot tell us what came before the big bang or what does our universe exist in.
Even if we use mathematics to postulate that the universe exist within a multi-verse it then begs yet another question: "What does the multi-verse exist in".
At some point our mathematics and science isn't going to allow us to explain certain things - I personally believe that at this level we will find this divine entity (or entities).
There are many verses in the bible which would indicate that a person is only saved by accepting Jesus into their lives.
Consequently most christians and even other religions like islaam believe that there way to god is the only way.
I really wonder what come back these religions are going to make when humans finally discover that aliens exist.
Statistically one can deduce that the universe probably has more civilizations than we have people on this planet.
Where would all these other civilizations receive their salvation from?
I personally don't believe it would be from any of the religions practiced here on earth.
Will the church then claim that none of these civilizations will receive salvation?
Will they again claim that they will be the only ones saved because they are special and god has chosen them. This will sound like the "we are the center of the universe and everything revolves around us" bs again.
Or will they agree that these other civilations may be receiving their salvation from some other belief. If this is so, then what if one of those aliens came to live on earth and still practiced their form of religion.
How will that then be able to co-exist with the church's belief that they are the only ones who are on the right path (not their opinions but a fact as taken from the scripture they submit to).
ie, what if a human also wants to practice that aliens religion. will the church turn around and say that only the alien will be saved by practicing his own religion and not any human?
I too am a scientist and believe that science does not proove that god does or does not exist.
Human science is currently very limited in that it cannot tell us what came before the big bang or what does our universe exist in.
Even if we use mathematics to postulate that the universe exist within a multi-verse it then begs yet another question: "What does the multi-verse exist in".
At some point our mathematics and science isn't going to allow us to explain certain things - I personally believe that at this level we will find this divine entity (or entities).
There are many verses in the bible which would indicate that a person is only saved by accepting Jesus into their lives.
Consequently most christians and even other religions like islaam believe that there way to god is the only way.
I really wonder what come back these religions are going to make when humans finally discover that aliens exist.
Statistically one can deduce that the universe probably has more civilizations than we have people on this planet.
Where would all these other civilizations receive their salvation from?
I personally don't believe it would be from any of the religions practiced here on earth.
Will the church then claim that none of these civilizations will receive salvation?
Will they again claim that they will be the only ones saved because they are special and god has chosen them. This will sound like the "we are the center of the universe and everything revolves around us" bs again.
Or will they agree that these other civilations may be receiving their salvation from some other belief. If this is so, then what if one of those aliens came to live on earth and still practiced their form of religion.
How will that then be able to co-exist with the church's belief that they are the only ones who are on the right path (not their opinions but a fact as taken from the scripture they submit to).
ie, what if a human also wants to practice that aliens religion. will the church turn around and say that only the alien will be saved by practicing his own religion and not any human?
| Well if we forget the Bible then we would have to forget Christmas as it is to celebrate the birth of Jesus. |
http://rcg.org/books/ttooc.html