How did the church make a comeback
closed account (3qX21hU5)
I don't mind having a debate on religion and really I'm all for it, but please don't mock other peoples beliefs. Its uncalled for. If you don't believe in a higher power or god fine that is your choice, but there are others here that do and find it offensive when you mock our beliefs and belittle us because of what we do believe.
| ModShop wrote: |
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| [Pascal's wager] |
| devonrevenge wrote: |
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| hey have any of you guys heard the holographic universe theory? complete with the recent 'we could all be a computer simulation' theory makes you wonder if scientists are getting religious(or wasting funding on something other than science and smoking it). |
The latter is a philosophical, not scientific, hypothesis.
closed account (z05DSL3A)
| I don't mind having a debate on religion and really I'm all for it, but please don't mock other peoples beliefs. Its uncalled for. If you don't believe in a higher power or god fine that is your choice, but there are others here that do and find it offensive when you mock our beliefs and belittle us because of what we do believe. |
The same goes for atheists, don't mock us for our beliefs.
It is probably worth noting that not all atheists are anti-religious.
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closed account (3qX21hU5)
I agree with you totally Grey wolf and I won't mock atheists or any other beliefs, like I have been saying it up to everyone to choose what they believe in and they shouldn't be judged or called stupid for it.
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closed account (iw0XoG1T)
Personally I really despise mutual respect--can't we all just mock, villainize, and belittle each other.
Besides this is c++ forum very few people will ever read these post.
Besides this is c++ forum very few people will ever read these post.
closed account (z05DSL3A)
Zereo, I didn't mean to suggest anyone had been mocking atheists, just adding to your (good) view point.
closed account (iw0XoG1T)
For those of you who like bizarre biblical stories read this:
Ehud the bathroom assassin (Judges 3:12-30)
Ehud the bathroom assassin (Judges 3:12-30)
closed account (1yR4jE8b)
| But if I'm right, I go to Heaven and have eternal life, whereas you go to Hell and have eternal torture. Win lose. |
Unless Odin is real, then we're all fucked.
| please don't mock other peoples beliefs. Its uncalled for. If you don't believe in a higher power or god fine that is your choice, |
I'm sorry but no, ridiculous beliefs deserve exactly that: ridicule. If I told you that I believed in Leprechauns and Pots of Gold at the end of a rainbow, the flat earth, turtles all the way down, teapots in orbit between mars and venus, etc... you'd laugh at me. I grant ancient desert myths about cosmic zombie jews the same consideration.
| but there are others here that do and find it offensive when you mock our beliefs and belittle us because of what we do believe. |
Tough. If your beliefs are shaken so easily because of what some random person on the internet types out, you deserve it. It's not like you're going to get leprosy because of it.
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closed account (iw0XoG1T)
I was raised in Fundamentalist church and I feel I really understand them. They do not care if you mock them. A Fundamentalist would say "We are in the world, we are not of the world." When you try to change their minds by mocking them, you are totally wasting your time because they really do not care what you think of them.
Most of the arguments posted here are directed at fundamentalist, and I can almost guarantee no fundamentalist will ever read your post.
Most of the arguments posted here are directed at fundamentalist, and I can almost guarantee no fundamentalist will ever read your post.
closed account (1yR4jE8b)
| When you try to change their minds by mocking them, you are totally wasting your time because they really do not care what you think of them. |
Neither do I. Who said I was trying to change anyone's mind? I was stating my position, nothing more.
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closed account (3qX21hU5)
My whole point darkestfright is not that my faith is shaken, but why mock someones beliefs? I don't mock yours even though I believe them to be wrong. Its not about who is right or wrong but about common respect.
But anyways I believe its best to let this thread die before it takes a turn for the worse which most of these threads do.
But anyways I believe its best to let this thread die before it takes a turn for the worse which most of these threads do.
| devonrevenge wrote: |
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| hey have any of you guys heard the holographic universe theory? complete with the recent 'we could all be a computer simulation' theory makes you wonder if scientists are getting religious(or wasting funding on something other than science and smoking it). |
I haven't heard any formal theories about that, although I often think of various parts of the physical world as some kind of massive program. I've even taken it as far as to visualize an inheritance hierarchy for various things (atoms [tons of little crap classes inside], molecules [vector<atom>], etc). Imagine the computing power required to simulate a real time world consisting of entirely voxels (that is, the atoms are the voxels). Of course, time itself is indeed just a simulation and we could be running at a refresh rate of less than one hertz and just not know it because we are only aware of our simulation time, not the outside time. What's on the outside of the universe? Another program's memory space. What happens if you leave? Segmentation fault followed by the destruction of all universes.
closed account (1yR4jE8b)
| Segmentation fault followed by the destruction of all universes. |
Unless it's a protected memory architecture, then just our Universe.
@Zereo
Being offended by others mocking their beliefs is part of the defence / justification of the beliefs by religious people. And this is probably part of the reason that religion has been able to propagate for so long.
Going along with it, is usually done to prevent friction (Be nice), but is really a form of concession, at least in part.
If society adopts the attitude of "Let religious people to belong to their club, leave them to it", might be all right for a while, but it is not long before they start to impact on the rest of society, frequently in a negative way, and this where the trouble starts.
| I don't mind having a debate on religion and really I'm all for it, but please don't mock other peoples beliefs. Its uncalled for. If you don't believe in a higher power or god fine that is your choice, but there are others here that do and find it offensive when you mock our beliefs and belittle us because of what we do believe. |
Being offended by others mocking their beliefs is part of the defence / justification of the beliefs by religious people. And this is probably part of the reason that religion has been able to propagate for so long.
Going along with it, is usually done to prevent friction (Be nice), but is really a form of concession, at least in part.
If society adopts the attitude of "Let religious people to belong to their club, leave them to it", might be all right for a while, but it is not long before they start to impact on the rest of society, frequently in a negative way, and this where the trouble starts.
This thread is moving too fast for me to keep up. I'm replying to ModShop mostly, as he seemed to be directing his response toward me. If someone else said something I missed (or if I missed something ModShop said to me), I apologize.
"You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord."
- Leviticus 19:28
(tattoos are widely considered to be perfectly acceptable in modern times)
"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; [snip]; your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." - God, Genesis 3:16
(women today are considered more than mere servants to their husbands, and husbands certainly don't "rule over" their wives in any sense of the phrase)
"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." - Leviticus 20:10
(adultery isn't really considered "acceptable" I suppose, but it certainly isn't considered death-penalty worthy by anyone but extremists)
I'm sure there are others, but I feel that's enough to make my point.
Granted Leviticus may not be considered the word of the divine... lots of Christians certainly preach it as though it were. (Though they tend to only pick out the parts of it they like and ignore the rest).
I have heard this repeatedly, and I'm a little baffled as to how people can claim this.
Can you give examples? Because I could probably give more than a few examples of how Christian beliefs impose on non-Christian lifestyles. Gay marriage being one of the most prominent, of course, but certainly not the only one.
| ModShop wrote: |
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| What exactly has changed that we claimed was some divine message? |
"You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord."
- Leviticus 19:28
(tattoos are widely considered to be perfectly acceptable in modern times)
"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; [snip]; your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." - God, Genesis 3:16
(women today are considered more than mere servants to their husbands, and husbands certainly don't "rule over" their wives in any sense of the phrase)
"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." - Leviticus 20:10
(adultery isn't really considered "acceptable" I suppose, but it certainly isn't considered death-penalty worthy by anyone but extremists)
I'm sure there are others, but I feel that's enough to make my point.
Granted Leviticus may not be considered the word of the divine... lots of Christians certainly preach it as though it were. (Though they tend to only pick out the parts of it they like and ignore the rest).
| ModShop wrote: |
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| although it's apparently ok for non-religious people to impose their anti-religion views on the religious, but not the other way around |
I have heard this repeatedly, and I'm a little baffled as to how people can claim this.
Can you give examples? Because I could probably give more than a few examples of how Christian beliefs impose on non-Christian lifestyles. Gay marriage being one of the most prominent, of course, but certainly not the only one.
I feel it is fine to believe there is a supreme being (God) and heaven, and I suppose it is fine to think He came to us as Jesus to die for our sins (after all if you believe in God, and He is as powerful as we believe Him to be then it makes sense). I do think it is fool hardy to believe a book that is regulated by a church claiming it was written by the Apostles that followed Jesus around. I mean, come on, the Chruch's livelihood is hinged on people believing everything that is in the Bible, if you stop believing it then they are basically going to be put out to pasture. If you think about it though, we are the modern day version of Sodom and Gomorrah due to a lot of the Bible that we break as pointed out by Disch so maybe we will be destroyed on December 21st ;).
Doomsday joke aside, the church is only coming back due to new people falling for the same old lies. I'm Christian and have been my whole life, but I only say that as I believe in God and that there is a Heaven and put little belief in what the Bible claims happened or what rules there are for man.
Doomsday joke aside, the church is only coming back due to new people falling for the same old lies. I'm Christian and have been my whole life, but I only say that as I believe in God and that there is a Heaven and put little belief in what the Bible claims happened or what rules there are for man.
closed account (1yR4jE8b)
| I feel it is fine to believe there is a supreme being (God) and heaven, and I suppose it is fine to think He came to us as Jesus to die for our sins (after all if you believe in God, and He is as powerful as we believe Him to be then it makes sense). |
So God is so powerful, he impreganated a virgin with himself, to sacrifice himself to himself, to save us from a state of being that he arbitrarily condemned us to in the first place? Yeah, seems totally legit. If he's so powerful, couldn't he just like...snap his fingers and forgive our sins?
Not to mention, Jesus was only dead for 3 days. Not much of a sacrifice if you ask me. Hell, I would go to Hell for three days after excruciating torture if I knew I was going to resurect and rise up to Heaven and rule the universe with my dad after.
| I do think it is fool hardy to believe a book that is regulated by a church claiming it was written by the Apostles that followed Jesus around. |
This doesn't follow. You need to accept what's written about Jesus in that book, in order to qualify for Heaven from above. If you take out the bible, there is absolutely no way you could come up with the Jesus narrative in the first place. The only way that the whole thing makes sense is if you accept the Bible as being true. You can't have one without the other.
| If you think about it though, we are the modern day version of Sodom and Gomorrah due to a lot of the Bible that we break as pointed out by Disch so maybe we will be destroyed on December 21st ;). |
Now you're just mixing up doomsday prophecies. Besides, the Mayans didn't count leap years so their "end of the world" happened already.
| darkestfright wrote: |
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| If you take out the bible, there is absolutely no way you could come up with the Jesus narrative in the first place. The only way that the whole thing makes sense is if you accept the Bible as being true. You can't have one without the other. |
This is kind of my position. If you admit the source is suspect, then how can you believe any of it? What makes you think the parts about Jesus and God are any more true than the other parts you don't believe in?
It just seems so arbitrary.
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More from ModShop:
The whole "believe or burn in hell" aspect is a scare tactic common to many faiths. Personally I don't see how anyone could believe it... especially when you talk about Christian/Catholic based faiths.
We are told that God is kind and forgiving. In the scenario where a man has been a cruel murderer and rapist his whole life realizes the error of his ways, truly and deeply repents and accepts Jesus on his death bed.... we are to expect that God will forgive him and accept him into Heaven.
Conversely, someone who lives their whole life as a generous, kind, compassionate person who frequently volunteers in programs to help others is doomed to burn in hell simply because they don't believe in Jesus?
It doesn't make any sense. God couldn't possibly be that egocentric that he would place his own pride over the general quality of human life. Or maybe he is... after all, I think one of the 10 commandments is that you must worship him and not worship any other.
So take your pick: God is either extremely insecure.... or he's kind of a jerk and cares more about himself than the quality of life of everyone else.... or it's a manipulative scare tactic used to keep the masses in line.
Sure I'm using some loaded language there... but it kind of fits the bill. I know which one makes the most sense to me.
As for "is it worth it?" I'd have to say yes. I value my ability to reason and make rational, independent decisions pretty highly.
I've heard this same argument in many forms. Another common form is similar to "how can your life have any meaning knowing that you won't exist after you die?" There's even some guy on youtube that made a comically extreme video about it (as I'm sure there are comically extreme videos of everything on youtube ;P)
Personally I find my meaning for living in life itself. I don't need to justify or qualify my life through death. I can just accept life for what it is. It isn't depressing, or hopeless... if anything, it makes life that much more important. This is all we have, so we better make the most of it.
I find the idea of non-existance after death no more troubling than non-existance before birth (or conception for you pro-lifers).
| ModShop wrote: |
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| Given that, what is the harm in believing? If you believe, you still have a chance, but if you don't, you're guaranteed to lose. Is your own foolish pride really worth it? |
The whole "believe or burn in hell" aspect is a scare tactic common to many faiths. Personally I don't see how anyone could believe it... especially when you talk about Christian/Catholic based faiths.
We are told that God is kind and forgiving. In the scenario where a man has been a cruel murderer and rapist his whole life realizes the error of his ways, truly and deeply repents and accepts Jesus on his death bed.... we are to expect that God will forgive him and accept him into Heaven.
Conversely, someone who lives their whole life as a generous, kind, compassionate person who frequently volunteers in programs to help others is doomed to burn in hell simply because they don't believe in Jesus?
It doesn't make any sense. God couldn't possibly be that egocentric that he would place his own pride over the general quality of human life. Or maybe he is... after all, I think one of the 10 commandments is that you must worship him and not worship any other.
So take your pick: God is either extremely insecure.... or he's kind of a jerk and cares more about himself than the quality of life of everyone else.... or it's a manipulative scare tactic used to keep the masses in line.
Sure I'm using some loaded language there... but it kind of fits the bill. I know which one makes the most sense to me.
As for "is it worth it?" I'd have to say yes. I value my ability to reason and make rational, independent decisions pretty highly.
| Surely you find it a little bleak in your belief in nothing after death? |
I've heard this same argument in many forms. Another common form is similar to "how can your life have any meaning knowing that you won't exist after you die?" There's even some guy on youtube that made a comically extreme video about it (as I'm sure there are comically extreme videos of everything on youtube ;P)
Personally I find my meaning for living in life itself. I don't need to justify or qualify my life through death. I can just accept life for what it is. It isn't depressing, or hopeless... if anything, it makes life that much more important. This is all we have, so we better make the most of it.
I find the idea of non-existance after death no more troubling than non-existance before birth (or conception for you pro-lifers).
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