vlad from moscow

[Disch]

retsgorf297 wrote:

No. I mean that they shouldn't, for example, ban guns so that criminals won't use them, when the people who are going to use them for self defense can't have them to protect themselves from the criminals that will get the guns anyway.

Let me clarify.

I'm not saying we should ban guns. Gun control does not mean making guns illegal. That is knee-jerk right wing propaganda.

I'm saying we should regulate the sale and purchase of guns more carefully/strictly.

Law abiding citizens would still be able to purchase guns legally. Just not over the internet or anonymously at a gun show (again... both of which are legal -- which I find very unsettling). And they might have to fill out some extra forms and wait a little longer.


Dealing with illegally obtained guns is a 2nd, separate step in the process... but it's hard to focus on that when guns are being passed around like herpes.

We have to start addressing the problem somewhere. And basic gun control is the easiest and most effective place to start.

[jwkNwA7f]

I'm not saying we should ban guns. Gun control does not mean making guns illegal. That is knee-jerk right wing propaganda.

I was using that as an example. Actually, the government is trying to slowly go to that.

[Disch]

Actually, the government is trying to slowly go to that.

No they're not. That's right-wing propaganda. You should stop watching Fox News.

If the government really wanted to make guns illegal, they'd be illegal by now. It's harder to bring nail clippers onto a commercial flight than it is to buy a gun.

[BHX]

retsgorf297 wrote:

Banning guns is stupid.

Yes, but not for the reason you stated. They are saying to ban guns because they are used in crimes. Australia used the recent murder of the visiting Australian to a US college as proof. If a person wants to kill you they don't need a gun, after all there are knives, crowbars, baseball bats, or some other blunt objects.

There is an email I sent NRA, White House, and CNN:

Me wrote:

"Banning guns isn't the solution. Stricter laws make no difference either. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Want proof? Lay a fully loaded, safety off, .45 on a table and call it every name in the book. Did it shoot you? Chances are you are still alive and reading the rest of the email. Now give the gun to a neighbor that hates your guts and call him every name in the book. Did he shoot you? If not, you just found out he doesn't hate you as much as you think he did. The gun is just a tool, a means to an end, they have no intent, no malice, no hatred or anger, all those come from the person wielding the gun."

My father-in-law is former Army and Marine and an avid gun collector. My father was former Army and murdered when I was 9 years old by three men when they robbed his gas station at gunpoint. I know both sides of the argument very well, and both sides are arguing the wrong points.

[jwkNwA7f]

No they're not.

Yes they do. Stop watching news other than Fox News :P

You should stop watching Fox News.

How'd you know? :D

Obama does want to ban guns along with some others.

[Disch]

BHXSpecter wrote:

Lay a fully loaded, safety off, .45 on a table and call it every name in the book. Did it shoot you?

*groooooan*

I can't believe I have to say this... but I will.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is a retarded saying. Of course a gun by itself is not going to kill anyone*

The point is, guns are a weapon. And a person with a weapon is more dangerous and/or more likely to kill than a person without a weapon.

Yes, if they don't have gun they might use another weapon.. but that's side-stepping the issue. No matter how violent a person is... give them a gun and they are infinitely more dangerous than they would be without one. Even giving them a knife or chainsaw is safer than giving them a gun.


So yes. The problem is people. But yes... the problem is also guns.

So the logical thing to do is... do a better job of which people are allowed to get guns. IE: gun control.



* except for misfires. In fact your strawman point about standing in front of a fully-loaded gun with the safety off is something nobody who knows anything about guns would EVER do because it is extremely dangerous. Misfires are known to happen.

It's the same reason you never stand under a forklift.

[Disch]

Yes they do. Stop watching news other than Fox News :P

So.... you want me to stop watching news? :P

Despite the name, Fox News is not news. It's a polarized and extremely biased political column.

How'd you know? :D

Because you're echoing the same uninformed drivel that they regurgitate day in and day out.

Obama does want to ban guns along with some others.

Source?

EDIT: Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity don't count as sources, as they frequently just make shit up. By a "source" I mean an actual investigative article. In this case, since you are claiming to know what Obama's intentions are, a quote from Obama saying he wants to ban guns would suffice.

[jwkNwA7f]

@BHX 100% agree.

@Disch I agree that there should be some gun control laws. Just not the ones like:
No guns on school property,
One they that they had not too long ago here that they got rid of:
Where you can only shoot someone when they are entering you house, not once they got in the house,
etc..

* except for misfires. In fact your strawman point about standing in front of a fully-loaded gun with the safety off is something nobody who knows anything about guns would EVER do because it is extremely dangerous. Misfires are known to happen.

Yep

[3qX21hU5]

So.... you want me to stop watching news? :P

Despite the name, Fox News is not news. It's a polarized and extremely biased political column.

The same can be said of CNN and other news channels it isn't just one side that is extremely biased and it isn't just one news channel. It runs on both sides of the isles. With that said though just because it is a biased source doesn't mean the information can't be accurate.

The best bet is to do your research yourself and make your own decisions and don't let Fox or CNN tell you the "truth".

Source?

They have been pushing H.R. 1022 for awhile now. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/hr1022/text along with the Feinstein bill http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons-ban-summary. I will point out Obama didn't write up the bill or propose it but he does support it. Also it is not a ban on all firearms like rets is saying but it does inact bans on many common firearms. Though there is some things in them bills that I do agree with but also some that I don't.

Again I think it would be better served looking at how our society acts then to concentrate all our efforts on banning certain guns, or making new laws (When we don't even enforce most of the ones we already have).

Look at keeping mentally ill people away from guns, changing our cultures attitude towards violence, ect.

[jwkNwA7f]

Because you're echoing the same uninformed drivel that they regurgitate day in and day out.

I knew that was what you meant.

Source?

drudgereport, fox news :P, etc.

And...Obama is a dumb*ss.

EDIT: @Zereo you explained it better than I did. Good job :)

[Disch]

No guns on school property,

I'm a little baffled as to why you think this is a bad law.

Teenagers aren't even considered responsible enough to drink, and you want to give them life-and-death responsibilities?

Where you can only shoot someone when they are entering you house, not once they got in the house,

Yes, that is stupid. I agree.

The same can be said of CNN and other news channels it isn't just one side that is extremely biased and it isn't just one news channel.

CNN might be slightly tilted to the left. MSNBC is clearly skewed way to the left (it's basically the left's answer to Fox News).

But the thing with CNN is they actually do reporting. Even if the reporting is crappy. They have reporters who are actually following up on stories.

Compare to Fox News' frontrunners shows like O'Reilly, Hannity, Fox & Friends where it's basically just a bunch of people in a studio ranting and raving without doing any factual reporting.


But I don't watch CNN either. They're pretty scatterbrained an unorganized. I do like Anderson Cooper, though.

News shows like NBC Nightly News are probably the best. Basically anyone that actually does reporting and not just fluff.

[jwkNwA7f]

I'm a little baffled as to why you think this is a bad law.

Teenagers aren't even considered responsible enough to drink, and you want to give them life-and-death responsibilities?

Oh, of course not. I mean adults with concealed carry permits.

Compare to Fox News' frontrunners shows like O'Reilly, Hannity, Fox & Friends where it's basically just a bunch of people in a studio ranting and raving without doing any factual reporting.

You said you would never watch Fox news, but it sounds like you know a lot about it...

NBC Nightly News

They have been caught many times editing recordings, etc., like in the George Zimmerman case. You can do your own research about what they did there.

EDIT: @Disch How the heck do you type up those replies so fast?

[Disch]

You said you would never watch Fox news, but it sounds like you know a lot about it...

I didn't say I never watched it. I said you should stop watching it. Since you apparently have difficulty discerning fact from opinion, and therefore you're very impressionable to tactics they use (ie: repeatedly and forcefully stating strong opinions without presenting rational and civilized counterpoints).

They have been caught many times editing recordings, etc., like in the George Zimmerman case. You can do your own research about what they did there.

I will this afternoon when I get a little more free time. I'm probably already spending too much time in this thread.



PS: still waiting for that source which explains how you can know what Obama's intentions are. (or were you just echoing misinformed opinion as if it were fact?)

EDIT: didn't see your edit:

drudgereport, fox news :P, etc.

Give me a link. Something that quotes Obama saying his intention is to ban guns. Or something which provides evidence to prove that is the case.

[3qX21hU5]

Yea my boss already caught me twice browsing this thread so I think I am spending to much time on here also ;p

[jwkNwA7f]

I will this afternoon when I get a little more free time. I'm probably already spending too much time in this thread.

I am too. In between posts I'm working on one of my projects.

[Disch]

Zereo provided links actually! I didn't see them until now. With the way this thread is moving, I think the edits are falling behind.

So I'm going to stop editing my posts.

@Zereo's first link: A ban on assault rifles is not quite the same as a bad on all guns.

@Zereo's second link: Looks to be down for maintenance?

[jwkNwA7f]

@Disch Yeah, that is why I keep double posting on here.

@Disch and Zereo How the heck do you guys type those replies so fast?

[3qX21hU5]

@Zereo's first link: A ban on assault rifles is not quite the same as a bad on all guns.

The first link goes farther then just assault rifles, but that is it's main purpose. Though the assault weapon debate is a whole different subject that can take up pages of this thread.

For example all the "assault weapons" (I really hate that term) that are available to civilians are already non automatic and are essentially the same as a hunting rifle. They just have cosmetic differences. But as I said that is for a different time and don't really wanna derail this thread even further.

But you are correct a ban on some guns is not a ban on all guns.

@Zereo's second link: Looks to be down for maintenance?

Hmm weird must have just went down. But it was essentially the same as the first with more firearms and more provisions (Bans 157 firearms, can't have more then 10 rounds, can't have magazine that hold more then 10 rounds, specific attachments ect.) but with different wording and some added and removed things.

Here is the full bill if you want to read it http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=9a9270d5-ce4d-49fb-9b2f-69e69f517fb4

[Null]

This is what you must do to get a gun in my country. It's not very well translated and some parts of the are missing but I hope you'll get the idea.

1. Pass the course of gun ownership, handling and usage for self-defense, organised by a private firm, and pass the exam in a police dept.

2.go to the clinic and get a warrant (form 049/a). You'll need:
a. Visit the family doctor. He'll direct you to other doctors.
b. Get warrant that you aren't registered in the center of addictions and psychical diseases
c. Before going to the psychiatrist, you'll need to get a characteristic from work or education institutio(...)
d. Pay form the form 049/a (~15-40 USD)

3. Buy and install a safe (or a 'strongbox', i'm not sure what the right word is) and install it in your house. Must be made of steel that is not thinner than 3mm, and must be attached to a wall or floor. Then it must be checked by a representative of police. He'll write you a warrant that you have met the conditions to own the gun

4. Go to the the police dept. and make a request to acquire a gun. You'll need:
(a bunch of papers)

5. Wait up to days (15 days in most cases) until the police checks the warrant and documents.

6. Go to the police dept. to get the license to acquire a gun.

7. Find the gun you would like to buy (no AKs and other dangerous stuff. Think "9mm", not "grenade laucher"

8. Again, you'll need to fill a lot of papers if you are buying an gun from a private person. And you'll need to go to the police dept.

9. Go to the police dept. again to take a license that you have the right to own that gun

That's it!

What about U.S?

[devonrevenge]

you cant go on such a massive massacre with a knife, I dont think anders brevick would have killed as many children had he used a knife, guns make it efficient, plus those 10,000 plus gun deaths a year are much much higher than most death involving crowbars and knives, I do not think there will be that much of a rise in knife crime if guns were to go, might give some criminals some genuine grit and resolve, you can be a badass and a coward if you have a gun, you cannot guarantee you will be that much of a badass with a base ball bat.

dont speak ill of crowbars neither.