How much do programmers really get paid?
In that case, I'd expect $40,000 to be a starting salary at a junior level.
The UK average is around £37,000, which is roughly $56k CAD.
This, of course, is all subjective.
There are companies that pay better than others. There are jobs that are better than others. Finally, money isn't everything. I'd rather do a £30k programming job that I love than a £60k sales job that I hate. Don't forget, you're probably going to be spending over 40 hours a week at work.
Also, there's nothing stopping you using whatever skills to your advantage outside of work. We live in an era where you have a hugely accessible market in mobile applications right on our doorstep.
The UK average is around £37,000, which is roughly $56k CAD.
This, of course, is all subjective.
There are companies that pay better than others. There are jobs that are better than others. Finally, money isn't everything. I'd rather do a £30k programming job that I love than a £60k sales job that I hate. Don't forget, you're probably going to be spending over 40 hours a week at work.
Also, there's nothing stopping you using whatever skills to your advantage outside of work. We live in an era where you have a hugely accessible market in mobile applications right on our doorstep.
To move this back from games, here in New York, an average senior C++ programmer in finance gets anywhere between 150 and 250k/yr, and companies that aren't doing finance have to match the salaries or lose the people. it's no picnic, though, "long hours" doesn't even begin to describe it.
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But for a whopping 150-250k who could complain. I mean honestly, You could pay for good house after taxes in 3 to 4 years for that salary.
closed account (3qX21hU5)
I highly agree.
Also for me a $40,000 entry level job with benefits is a lot better then most professions so I would hardly call it crap pay. Also like Hutch said its better to do something you love then to make more doing something you hate. Though there is exceptions when family and kids come into play.
Also I have to say that programming jobs are probably some of the most laid back work environments out there. You will have project related stress yes but the companies usually treat you well from what I hear.
Also for me a $40,000 entry level job with benefits is a lot better then most professions so I would hardly call it crap pay. Also like Hutch said its better to do something you love then to make more doing something you hate. Though there is exceptions when family and kids come into play.
Also I have to say that programming jobs are probably some of the most laid back work environments out there. You will have project related stress yes but the companies usually treat you well from what I hear.
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| Also, there's nothing stopping you using whatever skills to your advantage outside of work. We live in an era where you have a hugely accessible market in mobile applications right on our doorstep. |
Or at work... I may be in a different field of work, however I have supplied software to the company I work for and have gain bonuses due to doing so. More skills you provide to an employer, the more you are worth to them. This also falls under work ethics though, people are often too lazy to give extra effort.
As far as how much i love programming when i go to "work" it would be like play i absolutly love programming. It give me a sense of accomplishment and being able to make something out of nothing(which i know software doesn't have matter or anything but still you get the point) so 40000 would be enough to survive in a big city? that was what has scared me
I love programming myself. Thats one of the only reasons why I code so much. There is so much potential in creating your own software. But I would not code for 30-40k because I've invested so much time into learning the Math, Software Design, STL library, basic Graphics development, BSD Sockets, mastering the C and C++ languages, and knowing the basics of Java. To do work for 30-40k is too short change one's self, people are getting over on you if they will pay you that wage and you know as much as I've taught myself. It also ruins the environment for other programmers, because if an employer sees how much they can get for so little, they will try to maximize their profits and minimize their losses with each new programmer they can get.
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If you have invested the time then why not get paid for doing something you love(thats how i have always viewed it)
If you have invested the time then why not get paid for doing something you love (thats how i have always viewed it)
There is a reasonable limit with how low I would be willing to go for a wage even with something I love, which I am loving more and more each day. It partially ruins the sense of achievement if you get paid tic tacs on the dollar for something that you value so highly. The lowest I'd go for is 60k+. Its really not even about the money, its about what I could do with the money. I could buy more games, help my family, buy a house, give to charity. I wouldn't be able to do any of that with a minimum wage pay check. The average garbage man makes about 30k a year and that is a wage similiar to what teachers get, which is sad. A good teacher should make as much as a good programmer because they help to produce more good workers and innovators for society.
There is a reasonable limit with how low I would be willing to go for a wage even with something I love, which I am loving more and more each day. It partially ruins the sense of achievement if you get paid tic tacs on the dollar for something that you value so highly. The lowest I'd go for is 60k+. Its really not even about the money, its about what I could do with the money. I could buy more games, help my family, buy a house, give to charity. I wouldn't be able to do any of that with a minimum wage pay check. The average garbage man makes about 30k a year and that is a wage similiar to what teachers get, which is sad. A good teacher should make as much as a good programmer because they help to produce more good workers and innovators for society.
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I bet there are plenty of GOOD, I mean excellent and caring, teachers who love what they do, but would like a higher pay check, not for their extra work ethic, but for a more comfortable lifestyle.
closed account (3qX21hU5)
You consider 30k minimum wage? I'm guessing you live in a big city like New York or some other highly taxed place. Also you can't really expect to be making large amounts of money when you just start out. Programming is just like every other profession you start out at the entry level usually and work your way up with experience and good work. So even though you might accept a 40k job in 5 years if you put in hard work I and produce results I can almost guarantee you will be making quite a bit more then that.
Also supperpiccle, you don't need to be in a big city really to get a programming job. There are quite a few companies that are based in relatively small cities. Also another consideration to take into account if you live in the US (and other countries probably but I don't have experience in that area) is what state you are going to be working in. Different states and cities have drastically different cost of living expenses.
For example here in minnesota our big city is minneapolis and a 40k-50k job is a pretty good living and could get you by with a nice house and nice car and other expenses. But if you were to make that amount in somewhere like new york or california you would be struggling to get by with the average apartment costing you about 3,000 a month (Twice the average mortgage here in minnesota).
So in general there is a lot of factors you need to take into consideration when looking for a employer.
Also supperpiccle, you don't need to be in a big city really to get a programming job. There are quite a few companies that are based in relatively small cities. Also another consideration to take into account if you live in the US (and other countries probably but I don't have experience in that area) is what state you are going to be working in. Different states and cities have drastically different cost of living expenses.
For example here in minnesota our big city is minneapolis and a 40k-50k job is a pretty good living and could get you by with a nice house and nice car and other expenses. But if you were to make that amount in somewhere like new york or california you would be struggling to get by with the average apartment costing you about 3,000 a month (Twice the average mortgage here in minnesota).
So in general there is a lot of factors you need to take into consideration when looking for a employer.
No, haha, I definitely don't consider 30k minimum wage. I live in the south US. I'd consider it minimum wage for what I'm working to achieve though. I'm quite fine working for some company long term but not for my whole life. I got into programming to create and I love, I got some big dreams, feasible dreams. Thats one of the great things about the free market you can work for whoever you want and whoever wants to hire you, right now I'm working for myself and I hired myself haha. When I graduate some years from now, if what I've done is not panning out then I guess I'd be satisfied working for 50+ or something like that, but definitely not lower.
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closed account (3qX21hU5)
Ohh I wish I lived in the south instead of this cold up here. I would move specifically to texas where there is no state income taxes :)
Anyways ya its always good to set goals for yourself and have expectations and dreams. Like you said thats why I love the free market system also because anyone has the chance to become something if they put enough effort into and catch a break.
Anyways ya its always good to set goals for yourself and have expectations and dreams. Like you said thats why I love the free market system also because anyone has the chance to become something if they put enough effort into and catch a break.
To move this back from games, here in New York, an average senior C++ programmer in finance gets anywhere between 150 and 250k/yr, and companies that aren't doing finance have to match the salaries or lose the people. |
Not true.
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=C%2B%2B+senior+programmer&l1=New+York&tm=1
$125k is nowhere near 150-250k. And getting beyond 150k is actually very, very hard even for senior prograsmmers, if we are talking about programming and not management or HFT (i.e. gambling). And New york *is* expensive (especially living in good districts is extremely expensive) so $125k in NY is worth e.g. less than $90k in Texas which is less than $50k in Middle-East Europe ;)
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The department of labor in the US believes our field of work will grow more than any other science field between 2010 and 2020. If they are correct then at the very least being a programmer will give you a good shot at finding a job opening. As for pay, entry level is generally modest, but tends to go up with the more experience you have and with more responsibilities (or with more important the responsibilities)
I've been told it's not uncommon to pull 6 digits as a senior software developer for medium to large software companies.
I've been told it's not uncommon to pull 6 digits as a senior software developer for medium to large software companies.
rapid, you are so wrong on so many levels, I don't want to even touch this. (but yes, NY is expensive, that's why I commute)
@Cubbi you claim average salary for senior developers is within range 150k - 250k in NY. Link or it didn't happen. I agree there are some offers above $150k, but they are far from average. There are lots of senior develpers in NY making less than $100k.
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closed account (3qX21hU5)
I find it quite funny that you just so easily dismiss information from someone who obviously has knowledge of programming and the industry and says he works in the New York area just because a website says different.
You act like everyone on the internet is a fact ;p
| Link or it didn't happen. |
You act like everyone on the internet is a fact ;p
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I have to side with Cubbi on this. A lot of personal experience from living and working in an expensive city cannot always be linked. I live in Vancouver which, as of 2013, is the most expensive city in North America. I've learned about wages from my own jobs, what I could see on local job posting by agencies and from what I am told by co-workers, friends and family.
For example: my wife use to work as an office manager for an investment company. All the bankers that worked there were paid 30k a year as a base. however, their commission was a chunk from their million dollar deals they would do monthly. which caused their yearly wage to really be anywhere from 250k a year to maybe 10 times that amount. However, no job posting from that company would ever reveal this.
Edit: hundreds of thousands of people own expensive condos in those expensive cities. So the wages obviously reflects that.
For example: my wife use to work as an office manager for an investment company. All the bankers that worked there were paid 30k a year as a base. however, their commission was a chunk from their million dollar deals they would do monthly. which caused their yearly wage to really be anywhere from 250k a year to maybe 10 times that amount. However, no job posting from that company would ever reveal this.
Edit: hundreds of thousands of people own expensive condos in those expensive cities. So the wages obviously reflects that.
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But programmers *do not* get any provision from the deals. They are paid what's in the offer. They may actually get some company shares or share options, but until they sell them, it is hard to tell how much they are worth (sometimes they might be worth 0).
I also work in the industry in Silicon Valley for a top-level company, and Silicon Valley is even more expensive than NY, and job posting average salaries are higher than in NY, however most of the seniors I know make in the range $100k - 180k, which is perfectly in line with the job postings (avg. 140k).
I also work in the industry in Silicon Valley for a top-level company, and Silicon Valley is even more expensive than NY, and job posting average salaries are higher than in NY, however most of the seniors I know make in the range $100k - 180k, which is perfectly in line with the job postings (avg. 140k).