So, I still come back to god, the perfect, knows everything, the beginning, the ending and everything in-between, would have known that what was going to happen and therefore wanted it to happen that way. So did god create the devil? If so why? If not, then god did not create everything and your augments to this point are flawed.
So god did god get it wrong with making Adam and Eve? Kicks them out of paradise as a punishment. We didn't learn from that, so gives us a few plagues to deal with. Didn't learn from that hits the reset button again with a flood. Didn't workout to well. Is god really that good. Or is it just that he needs strife in the world to keep people thinking of him? if everything is perfect in the world who needs to thing of god?
What kills those believers is lack of true faith.
Hmm, so back when I was a christian, the Vicar of our church had a lack of true faith?
Lucifer (devil, satan): was once an angel of God.
Adam and Eve: First people created.
After God created them (Adam and Eve), every angel bowed to them because they were perfect except Lucifer. He tricked Adam and Eve into committing evil. God gave them choice. What more could you ask from everything?
They couldn't resist the devil. They were cast out including satan. This caused every other bad thing. God said, "you shall not". They had the choice, the power and authority to not eat that fruit. They picked one choice, the evil one.
If God didn't create choice, we won't be here, Lucifer wouldn't have made evil, Adam and Eve wouldn't have eaten the fruit. Our lives would be a pacman game, get the player (do this), nothing else.
Death came out of this evil as well as pains during labour, it was our punishment for choosing evil in place of good. When it is your time to die, you shall. Moses died, Jesus suffered the most painful death, Abraham died, Adam and Eve died. Methuselah was the oldest man at 969 years old (9 centuries, 6 decades).
God is good. He gave everything to us, He even asked His highest ranking angels to bow to us only for a puny serpent to make us start a chain reaction of problems of our own doing. There was once a time when we spoke one language, they tried to create a tower to reach heaven but God threw down different languages, they couldn't understand each other.
He sent you out and you try to force your back in. He has given us the choice and the ability to resist the devil and follow him but some people won't listen.
Corruption, diseases etc. are our own doings. We had everything but we didn't like it so we created our own problems.
Might as well: Evil is a choice? Did god then not make choices, and not necessarily perfect ones? He made man, but he made man imperfect. If they were truly perfect, how could they be tricked? God himself chose to make choice, and hence chose to make evil, did he not? And how is the creation of evil not evil itself?
To do evil is a choice. He made choice. He didn't make the choices we take, that's our responsibility, the choice is ours. He gave us the ability to decide to eat breakfast by 10am on monday and by 7am on Tuesday. He didn't say your only choice of eating breakfast is by 7am or 10am, it's our own. The creation of evil has nothing to do with God. We had the power to do anything, everything that existed was ours. Everything was good until Lucifer (satan, devil) decided (made his choice) not to bow to man. A serpent, a creature of God came to you and asked that you eat from a tree you've been instructed not to eat from and you didn't think twice. You didn't think that's bad. That was the evil. We chose to create it.
There were choices there, kill the serpent, ignore it, cut down the tree, destroy the fruits, eat it, report it God etc. Those were the choices, God didn't make them, we made the choices, God only made us have the ability to do make choices.
If a general gives you a gun, you have the choice to shoot him, yourself or someone else. The general knows these are your choices. God gave the freedom to you to make choices. He didn't give any specific choice. Adam and Eve had choices. They weren't given "eat the fruit" as the only choice, they made their choice. God knew, they knew too but they did it, somebody else may have ignored the serpent, another could have reported it to God. God was like a room-mate.
I'm going to say this and be done. You, Nathan, are part of the problem. And people like you are holding the rest of us back. I don't claim to know that god doesn't exist, I concede he might. That makes me agnostic, but I have the cognitive ability to question. And it was that questioning when I read the bible in church that lead me to atheism. Overtime I began to see faith for what it was, a crutch. It's rejecting knowledge to maintain your own preconceived notions. That is inherently a problem and is holding us all back as a society. Frankly it's baffling that this is still a problem in the modern age.
Fun fact: the Devil didn't exist as a character for the entire duration of the writing of the Bible (remember its books were written by many different people through several hundred years). At the time the Genesis was written, only God existed. The snake in Eden was a literal legged talking snake; the idea that it was the Devil didn't come until much later, maybe as late as the book of Revelations.
As time went by, different characters were added as people became frustrated with the incompatibility of evil and suffering with an omnipotent benevolent being. For example, there's the figure of "the accuser" in the book of Job (improperly translated as "Satan" in KJV).
Watch this very interesting video for more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-gbOnWj6Mw
If a general gives you a gun, you have the choice to shoot him, yourself or someone else. The general knows these are your choices. God gave the freedom to you to make choices.
That's a poor analogy. The general isn't making the soldier's brain. The general doesn't know in advance with 100% certainty what the soldier will do. He wouldn't give the soldier a gun if he was absolutely positively sure he's going to get shot.
I honestly don't understand how theists manage to reconcile free will and omniscience. I guess it's the old 2+2=5 thing, but it's something that's just beyond me, even if I did grow up with this crap thrust upon me.
Never really got the whole devil thing. If the devil was being sent an army of evil doers, why would he torture them eternally? Why wouldn't he use them for the army of evil doers that they are. Plot holes in stories and lame plot device to try and scare people into doing good.
Is it really free will or choice, if god is all powerful, he already knows what you are going to do, so it's not really a choice at all. If he doesn't know what you are going to do, then he isn't all powerful and not truly a god.
God knows the things you are going to do. All of it, not just one. We lost eternal life when we committed that sin. Heaven and hell became our eternal choices. For what we did, God still helps us but He can't walk us into heaven, afterall not everyone wants to go.
Why would the devil use you to do anything other than his plan which is to bring you to hell for torture? To make sure people do come to hell, he has his own army of angels, they will decieve, twist and caused all manner of evil but we can resist him. It's our choice and there are plentiful and God knows the outcome of all your choices.
You are the very thing that caused satan's (the serpent) downfall so your only use is to cause problems and once you are in hell, torturing you is all there is. There you will realise what it is like to have no choice.
Jesus was a human. The devil tempted him. God knew Jesus could succumb to the devil during the temptations but still let him become human. Jesus overcame the devil.
Even in the bible, most especially in revelations, you see "he who has ears, let them hear". You are not forced to hear, that's your choice. The outcomes of your choices exist. Whatever outcome you see is as a result of your choice.
There will be a time where there is no hell, no evil, no satan, no evildoers, they would have been defeated and exterminated. When that time comes is unknown, it can be in 10 seconds time, 10 minutes, 10 hours etc. When it comes, we will all face judgement. Just God and us.
Life is like an ocean voyage and our bodies are the ships
And without a moral compass we would all be cast adrift
So to keep us on our bearings, the Lord gave us a gift
And like most gifts you get, it was a book
I only read one book, but it's a good book, don't you know
I act the way I act because the Good Book tells me so
If I wanna know how to be good, it's to the Good Book that I go
'Cos the Good Book is a book and it is good and it's a book
I know the Good Book's good because the Good Book says it's good
I know the Good Book knows it's good because a really good book would
You wouldn't cook without a cookbook and I think it's understood
You can't be good without a Good Book 'cos it's good and it's a book
And it is good for cookin'
I tried to read some other books, but I soon gave up on that
The paragraphs ain't numbered and they complicate the facts
I can't read Harry Potter 'cos they're worshipping false gods and that
And Dumbledore's a poofter and that's bad, 'cos it's not good
Morality is written there in simple white and black
I feel sorry for you heathens, got to think about all that
Good is good and evil's bad and goats are good and pigs are crap
You'll find which one is which in the Good Book, 'cos it's good
And it's a book, and it's a book
I had a cat, she gave birth to a litter
The kittens were adorable and they made my family laugh
But as they grew they started misbehavin'
So I drowned the little fuckers in the bath
When the creatures in your care start being menaces
The answers can be found right there in Genesis!
Chapter 6, Verse 5-7!
Swing your partner by the hand
Have a baby if you can
But if the voices your head
Say to sacrifice your kid
To satiate your loving God's
Fetish for dead baby blood
It's simple faith, the Book demands
So raise that knife up in your hand!
Before the Good Book made us good, there was no good way to know
If a thing was good or not that good or kind of touch and go
So God decided he'd give writing allegoric prose a go
And so he wrote a book and it was generally well-received
The Telegraph said, "This God is reminiscent of the Norse."
The Times said, "Kind of turgid, but I liked the bit with horses."
The Mail said, "Lots of massacres, a violent tour de force."
If you only read one book this year, then this one is a book
And it is good, and it's a book!
Swing your daughter by the hand
But if she gets raped by a man
And refuses then to marry him
Stone her to death!
If you just close your eyes and block your ears
To the accumulated knowledge of the last two thousand years
Then morally, guess what? You're off the hook
And thank Christ you only have to read one book
Just because the book's contents
Were written generations hence
By hairy desert-dwelling gents
Squatting in their dusty tents
Just because what Heaven said
Was said before they'd leavened bread
Just 'cos Jesus couldn't read
Doesn't mean that we should need
When manipulating human genes
To alleviate pain and fight disease
When deciding whether it's wrong or right
To help the dyin' let go of life
Or stop a pregnancy when it's
Just a tiny blastocyst
There's no reason why we should take a look
At any other book
But the Good Book
'Cause it's good
And it's a book
And it's a book
And it's quite good!
Good is good and evil's bad
And kids get killed when God gets mad
And you'd better take a good look
At the Good Book
Goddamn. I had typed my reply, but accidentally closed the tab.
It's our choice and there are plentiful and God knows the outcome of all your choices.
Choosing means to change something. If I show you two boxes and say "open the right box and win a million dollars", but both boxes are empty, did I really give you a choice?
What if I was a real, perfect psychic? I know in advance that you'll choose the box on the right. When you finally do open the box on the right and find that it's empty, did you lose because you chose wrong (the other box did indeed contain a million dollars), or because I chose that you were going to lose?
Disch: Could you define free will? Personally, I can't think of one that's compatible with predetermination. Compatibilists side-step the problem by defining free will in a non-metaphysical, relative context (e.g. someone with a gun pointed at their head could be said to have less free will than someone deciding what flavor their ice cream will be), but I don't think that's what you mean.