Adoption by Homosexual Couples
@Nathan2222 - I don't believe that I evolved - not in literal meaning. But yes - human race evolved, and we still evolve. That's a fact. Evolving and accommodation are things that make us progress.
And the problem with our conversation isn't that we have different beliefs. The problem is that you are religion fanatic.
You (falsely, by the way) assume that god exists. You, therefore, think that you have right to talk like you knew everything. That's not true. And Albert Einstein was good at physics, but you aren't Albert, and I'm not collegue professor. Also, it's not the other way. The true reason behind your resignation is that you lack arguments - it's not surprising, because such arguments don't really exist. You can't say that god exists because bible says so. You can't say that bible is true, because god exists. Bible is a nice book with nice stories, some are interesting, and can teach you few things. But it's not more than that.
@Stormboy - Define "all things in science". And we didn't evolved from apes. It's huge simplification.
And from there, after asking about big bang, everything else is just nonsense.
I won't answer your questions - they are really stupid. I will show it to you the other way:
How can you believe that the universe was created by some god? From what material would god create universe? How can you believe that god just existed? Who created god? Who created the one who created the god?(that goes recursively from here).
The thing with people believing in god is - they thing he's perfect explanation of beginning of universe and all. He isn't. You still don't know who created god. And you still don't know who created the one who created the god. If you state "The god just existed. That's all" - it would be the same as saying "Mattery just existed. That's all".
However, science has this advantage over religion - people involved in science (mostly) accept only things, that are proven. So evolution is a fact, radio waves are a fact, protons, neutrons, electrons, and such - are fact. These things are proven to exist/work. Big Bang is theory - there's some chance that this could have happened. But it isn't a fact. Distinguish facts from theories.
And believe me - it's easier to blindly follow religion, then blindly follow science :)
As for religion - if you look at almost every religion, they all serve two main purposes: to explain our origin, and to comfort us. At the time, Greeks did believe in their gods. Vikings did believe in their gods. Greeks believed Gods are having good time at the summit of some mountain not because they saw them playing there. It was a place that looked dangerously for them, and that's why they set their gods on this mountain. Later, we discovered that there are no gods on any mountain(sadly), so we know that they were wrong. But really, religions are good at comforting people. Not at speaking facts. That's why religion laws shouldn't be considered viable.
Religion is good for controlling people.
PS
@ Nathan's "20 m/s^2 gravity force"
That's the advantage of science - we know why g is equal to (approx.) 9,8 m/s^2 (and it's acceleration, not force). We know it won't magically change. You could say things like "But what if?". Well, nothing. Because chances of this event are the same as you giving birth to full-grown speaking potato in the next 15 minutes.
And the problem with our conversation isn't that we have different beliefs. The problem is that you are religion fanatic.
You (falsely, by the way) assume that god exists. You, therefore, think that you have right to talk like you knew everything. That's not true. And Albert Einstein was good at physics, but you aren't Albert, and I'm not collegue professor. Also, it's not the other way. The true reason behind your resignation is that you lack arguments - it's not surprising, because such arguments don't really exist. You can't say that god exists because bible says so. You can't say that bible is true, because god exists. Bible is a nice book with nice stories, some are interesting, and can teach you few things. But it's not more than that.
@Stormboy - Define "all things in science". And we didn't evolved from apes. It's huge simplification.
And from there, after asking about big bang, everything else is just nonsense.
I won't answer your questions - they are really stupid. I will show it to you the other way:
How can you believe that the universe was created by some god? From what material would god create universe? How can you believe that god just existed? Who created god? Who created the one who created the god?(that goes recursively from here).
The thing with people believing in god is - they thing he's perfect explanation of beginning of universe and all. He isn't. You still don't know who created god. And you still don't know who created the one who created the god. If you state "The god just existed. That's all" - it would be the same as saying "Mattery just existed. That's all".
However, science has this advantage over religion - people involved in science (mostly) accept only things, that are proven. So evolution is a fact, radio waves are a fact, protons, neutrons, electrons, and such - are fact. These things are proven to exist/work. Big Bang is theory - there's some chance that this could have happened. But it isn't a fact. Distinguish facts from theories.
And believe me - it's easier to blindly follow religion, then blindly follow science :)
As for religion - if you look at almost every religion, they all serve two main purposes: to explain our origin, and to comfort us. At the time, Greeks did believe in their gods. Vikings did believe in their gods. Greeks believed Gods are having good time at the summit of some mountain not because they saw them playing there. It was a place that looked dangerously for them, and that's why they set their gods on this mountain. Later, we discovered that there are no gods on any mountain(sadly), so we know that they were wrong. But really, religions are good at comforting people. Not at speaking facts. That's why religion laws shouldn't be considered viable.
Religion is good for controlling people.
PS
@ Nathan's "20 m/s^2 gravity force"
That's the advantage of science - we know why g is equal to (approx.) 9,8 m/s^2 (and it's acceleration, not force). We know it won't magically change. You could say things like "But what if?". Well, nothing. Because chances of this event are the same as you giving birth to full-grown speaking potato in the next 15 minutes.
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@Everybody in this thread
We all obviously have different views on this subject. We all have our own opinions and beliefs, but in our society we have the right to freely express them. I am personally on the side of the people arguing the scientific points, but I am not an atheist. I agree with the opinions of people like Canis lupus and Disch, but that does not mean I am not willing to entertain and think about the opinions presented by Nathan2222. I think what we are forgetting is that debates like this can be very beneficial to society and it is important that we carry them out, but the thought process of "I know I am right so I will not listen to what you have to say", for example Nathan2222 said
@Nathan2222
Why does it matter? You can still discuss things.
Many of us are also just insulting each other because of a different view point. These things do not help anyone and they damage your argument as a whole. I think this topic has the potential to produce some interesting opinions and ideas on both sides of the spectrum, but only if we tolerate each other's opinions and listen to what they have to say.
We all obviously have different views on this subject. We all have our own opinions and beliefs, but in our society we have the right to freely express them. I am personally on the side of the people arguing the scientific points, but I am not an atheist. I agree with the opinions of people like Canis lupus and Disch, but that does not mean I am not willing to entertain and think about the opinions presented by Nathan2222. I think what we are forgetting is that debates like this can be very beneficial to society and it is important that we carry them out, but the thought process of "I know I am right so I will not listen to what you have to say", for example Nathan2222 said
| I can't have a conversation with you guys....You neither believe in God nor the bible and believe in evolution. |
@Nathan2222
Why does it matter? You can still discuss things.
Many of us are also just insulting each other because of a different view point. These things do not help anyone and they damage your argument as a whole. I think this topic has the potential to produce some interesting opinions and ideas on both sides of the spectrum, but only if we tolerate each other's opinions and listen to what they have to say.
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closed account (iAk3T05o)
@canis lupus & matthewrock: you are really funny. Man didn't evolve but i don't need to convince. You have a common ancestor with apes, slugs etc. Matthew: Not we, you evolved, my ancestry is with God.
@myesolar: You can decide to find out who created God, that's your problem. He is not a science but science tries to explain everything. If science can explain everything and can't explain what caused the big bang (the scientific beginning), it's flawed. Evolution isn't a fact. It's a scientific thing and science is good for accomodating people.
@myesolar: You can decide to find out who created God, that's your problem. He is not a science but science tries to explain everything. If science can explain everything and can't explain what caused the big bang (the scientific beginning), it's flawed. Evolution isn't a fact. It's a scientific thing and science is good for accomodating people.
No one created God, he created all that exists. There must be a Creator to all things that exists. Lets say allright for an instance, someone did create God. Then you'd say who created the one who created God and so on. Thus this question is irrational. There must be a point where there is someone who created everything and He wasn't created Himself, He was just there. He is God. You can't expect matter to be there out of nothing by just chance. That's why we say God is divine, that He can do what others cannot. Just think, everything in this world runs in a very nice system. The planets always follow their path, the Sun rises always from the east and sets in the west. The cells of the body divides itself. The complex and amazing human brain. Can everything of these happen by mere chance? That's impossible. Just sit down and think about this instead of being arrogant and arguing about every fucking thing you hear of.
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closed account (iAk3T05o)
Have you heard that nothing is impossible for God?
You want to scientify God by explaining his origin.
Fact: You will fail and probably go crazy.
You want to scientify God by explaining his origin.
Fact: You will fail and probably go crazy.
@nathan
That's not an argument. That's a statement without any prove. If you wish to discuss, please, say something that has more meaning than simply saying that you are superior, and our opinion is worthless, because you said so.
@Stormboy
That's one of the false assumptions I talked about. Why "there must be a creator"? Because you think so? If you say that no one created god, why can't we say that no one created matter?
My question isn't irrational. It's assumption that god exists, because someone had to create universe, is irrational. And my question shows that. If you feel right to say that god just was there, why do you feel wrong about saying that matter too "just was there"?
PS.
@Nathan - that's nice, provided that god does exist. We don't know that, so we first should at least show that there's high probability for that... Which you can't. It's not me failing to scientify god. I don't want to scientify him, sociology may do it. God exists only in people's minds.
Also, it's your burden to prove that god does exist, not my to prove he doesn't.
you are really funny. Not we, you evolved, my ancestry is with God. |
That's not an argument. That's a statement without any prove. If you wish to discuss, please, say something that has more meaning than simply saying that you are superior, and our opinion is worthless, because you said so.
@Stormboy
| No one created God, he created all that exists. There must be a Creator to all things that exists. |
That's one of the false assumptions I talked about. Why "there must be a creator"? Because you think so? If you say that no one created god, why can't we say that no one created matter?
My question isn't irrational. It's assumption that god exists, because someone had to create universe, is irrational. And my question shows that. If you feel right to say that god just was there, why do you feel wrong about saying that matter too "just was there"?
PS.
@Nathan - that's nice, provided that god does exist. We don't know that, so we first should at least show that there's high probability for that... Which you can't. It's not me failing to scientify god. I don't want to scientify him, sociology may do it. God exists only in people's minds.
Also, it's your burden to prove that god does exist, not my to prove he doesn't.
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BTW, before you jump to conclusions that I'm a Christian, I'm not.
I'm done arguing with you all, there isn't a point in having a debate with you all on ANY topic as you all just disagree on things, whether its BHX, LB, me or whosoever. And MathhewRock, if you have looked into every religion, from the sounds of your talk, you certainly didn't look into Islam yet. Hence, your so hard arrogancy.
I'm done arguing with you all, there isn't a point in having a debate with you all on ANY topic as you all just disagree on things, whether its BHX, LB, me or whosoever. And MathhewRock, if you have looked into every religion, from the sounds of your talk, you certainly didn't look into Islam yet. Hence, your so hard arrogancy.
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| Evolution isn't a fact. |
It has to be said that it really is. Increasing antibiotic resistance is probably the day to day thing you will hear about most confirming this, not to mention studies on bacteria (usually E-Coli) showing evolution in the lab (example: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186%2F1471-2148-12-151).
| can't explain what caused the big bang |
You also must really think about this question. There is no before the big bang. During the big bang, time itself was created, along with cause and effect and everything else. You can't ask what happened before because there is no time. This idea is very abstract, I know, but please understand 'what caused the big bang' is not a question any serious scientist is asking.
| Can everything of these happen by mere chance? That's impossible |
Actually, that is exactly what is happening. Sit down and think about that.
Edit: Link to paper doesn't work, but you can read about it on wiki too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment
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@Stormboy I don't care. I'm not hating or disliking any religion. You can worship whoever you want. I just tell you - they all have similar origin and purpose, so it doesn't really matter if you believe in Christian's god, or Flying Spaghetti Monster. :)
@Mats - link doesn't work
@Mats - link doesn't work
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| Actually, that is exactly what is happening. |
Edit: Can we close this thread? Its bringing hate of different members among other members. And the topic that's started to go on now will surely bring many quits, rages, etc.
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closed account (10X9216C)
| There must be a Creator to all things that exists. Lets say allright for an instance, someone did create God. Then you'd say who created the one who created God and so on. Thus this question is irrational. |
That's the paradox behind having something that "rules them all". What's irrational is ignoring the question "who created the creator" simply to solve the paradox. There doesn't have to be a creator to all things, where are you getting that from, indoctrination from religion or society most likely..
| he complex and amazing human brain. Can everything of these happen by mere chance? That's impossible. |
It's not impossible... Who knows how long this universe has been around for and who knows how much time has actually passed since who knows from what we can actually call "the beginning". I like the idea more (in that it is more interesting and just plan amazing; the fact you think that's impossible is really disgusting) that all this stuff happened on it's own (by chance in your words) then having some magical entity creating it all.
| Just think, everything in this world runs in a very nice system. The planets always follow their path, the Sun rises always from the east and sets in the west. The cells of the body divides itself. |
Lol, none of that has anything to do with god.
closed account (iAk3T05o)
But science explains everything and yet you tell me that the big just existed when it formed the universe which has no dimension till now.
Light a candle, no, a match stick with your mind then i'll believe that the big bang just existed.
Ever think that all these planets/big bang etc. were made specifically for you guys. That happened to Mars, this is what pluto is, we are almost finding a new earth. They've found a cure for this disease, that tornado happened, volcano b erupted, the ocean rose above average etc. If you've made a game, think about all the things you put in it that are just there. Think about it, they've spent time doing this. You spend your time trying to prove all these things and that God doesn't exist but you are just playing a perfect open world game. It's a treasure hunt without a treasure.
Light a candle, no, a match stick with your mind then i'll believe that the big bang just existed.
Ever think that all these planets/big bang etc. were made specifically for you guys. That happened to Mars, this is what pluto is, we are almost finding a new earth. They've found a cure for this disease, that tornado happened, volcano b erupted, the ocean rose above average etc. If you've made a game, think about all the things you put in it that are just there. Think about it, they've spent time doing this. You spend your time trying to prove all these things and that God doesn't exist but you are just playing a perfect open world game. It's a treasure hunt without a treasure.
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| Lol, none of that has anything to do with god. |
Then who made the laws that the things will work that way? You?
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@Nathan - science doesn't explain everything. It explains a good deal of things, and in accurate way. And get off the poor Big Bang. It's just a theory. It's not a fact. Big Bang isn't proven.
And you actualy made a good point - why "god" created us? Why can't we be just a part of a computer program? We wouldn't really know. We just compiled and got here. :)
@Stormboy - people made the laws. The laws are just explaining how things work. If you throw a ball, it will hit ground. There is no god pushing ball down to the ground. And back again - if there's a god, who created him? We can't really talk about what god can and can't do, if we don't know if he even exists.
PS. myesolar explained things nicely.
And you actualy made a good point - why "god" created us? Why can't we be just a part of a computer program? We wouldn't really know. We just compiled and got here. :)
@Stormboy - people made the laws. The laws are just explaining how things work. If you throw a ball, it will hit ground. There is no god pushing ball down to the ground. And back again - if there's a god, who created him? We can't really talk about what god can and can't do, if we don't know if he even exists.
PS. myesolar explained things nicely.
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closed account (iAk3T05o)
Science is just a perfect open world game. You will continue finding new things but the rules, gameplay, the physics etc. was made by God. The laws and everything else was put into the minds of the people that made them. Gravity, friction, motion etc. was made by God.
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closed account (z05DSL3A)
| It's just a theory. It's not a fact. Big Bang isn't proven. |
Even though the words "hypothesis" and "theory" are often used synonymously, a scientific hypothesis is not the same as a scientific theory. A scientific hypothesis is a proposed explanation of a phenomenon which still has to be rigorously tested. In contrast, a scientific theory has undergone extensive testing and is generally accepted to be the accurate explanation behind an observation.
@Nathan - Still, no proofs. Why do you think that these laws were created by god?
@Canis - My bad.
@Canis - My bad.
closed account (10X9216C)
| Then who made the laws that the things will work that way? You? |
Gj side stepping everything else. Why do you think it's a person?
Actually, the big bang is considered theory and is very widely accepted. Observations so far at the LHC are pretty much as consistent as ever could have been hoped with our current most favoured big bang models. Of course, this could all change when they rack up the energy next year (EVERYONE is hoping it will throw out something unexpected!).
It is not however, an explosion, or comparable to an explosion or anything like any casual reading or TV show will tell you. I think the fact it's always compared to one and has the word 'bang' in really greatly misleads a lot of people. When scientists say "the big bang", they are really referring to a breaking down of mathematical symmetries present in the earliest times of the universe. something about breaking down of mathematical symmetry just doesn't capture public imagination though. =/
It is not however, an explosion, or comparable to an explosion or anything like any casual reading or TV show will tell you. I think the fact it's always compared to one and has the word 'bang' in really greatly misleads a lot of people. When scientists say "the big bang", they are really referring to a breaking down of mathematical symmetries present in the earliest times of the universe. something about breaking down of mathematical symmetry just doesn't capture public imagination though. =/