Ego?

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@mbozzi
use google

Search this: "percent of rape cases in different countries" and find a reliable source.

Google about cultural differences

Google about a lot of other topics which you don't like!!!

you're an idiot

hmm. I m being rude.

"Common sense" is a poor advisor.

They say: India has most number of rape case
Common sense: When comparing different number of population you see percent not quantity.
Actually, the article acknowledges that per 100000 inhabitants, there are fewer reported rapes in India than in the US. Did you even read it?

it was the culture for hundreds of years.
Are you actually trying to excuse it? Your assertion was that India was "the best" country for women, without any qualifying statements. Why should we just ignore those facts that are inconvenient for your narrative?

They say: All Indians are rapists, etc
Who has ever said this (in this thread)?

I didn't see you address the thing about sex-selective abortions and child brides.
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@helios
I didn't see you address the thing about sex-selective abortions and child brides.

cough
racist, black people, slavery, drugs, bdsm, sex-obession, disrespecting your own president, etc.
cough

Main point: problems are everywhere.

Are you actually trying to excuse it?

women cooking food and caring for their children was not a form of oppression for a long time.It just was the best system of that time.
I never said it was the culture to oppress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQabNGEN3ss
See videos like this.
suyashsing234 wrote:

Come on we know better than to listen to these journalists, magazines, etc sitting in their glass towers and passing judgments.
suyashsing234 wrote:

These are published by the people who can't do basic maths.

Right... Let's just dismiss studies and research because people can't seem to do basic maths.

I think one of the articles encapsulate your feelings:

India is in denial of the fact that a majority of its women do not feel safe alone on the streets, at work, in markets, or at home, even though they have learned how to cope with this existential anxiety.


suyashsing234 wrote:

They say: All Indians are rapists, etc
Common sense: I took your job away cause I am more hardworking. Don't hate me lol.

What in the world are you talking about? What you have just stated makes no sense whatsoever.

Common sense isn't something to be trusted. Socrates said so himself. Many people think it's common sense that in order to be successful, you must pursue higher education. That's actually not true at all. You can be quite successful without pursuing higher education. It's common sense that if you work hard, you'll be successful. That's false. People work hard all the time and aren't successful. It's common sense that if you make a lot of money, you'll be happy. No, that's also false. People can have a lot of money and still be unhappy. If you think common sense is equatable to research, you're very mistaken.
Guys, I am not responding anymore to this thread but will read your any more viewpoints. Just see my last two posts and their links and think for a while before blindly accepting "researches".

I am not a misogynist or anything else whatever you may feel and do not intend to be.

The tone may have been misinterpreted because of my bad grammar.

My main point is that I believe children are influenced majorly by their mothers. How mother behaves will greatly impact the child.
black people
Are you saying black people are a problem?

drugs
IMO the main problem with drugs in the West is prohibition, not use or addictions.

bdsm, sex-obession
I think you continue to reveal more about yourself than you realize.
I don't view these as problems. Actually, I would argue puritanism is something Western culture needs to leave behind.

disrespecting your own president
If a head of state is not disrespected it's not because the people are very respectful and content, but because there's no freedom of speech. You can tell freedom of speech is working when the government is criticized and ridiculed.

Main point: problems are everywhere.
But the one claiming that their culture is the best at something is you. I have never in my life said "Argentina is best country in the world, it has no problems and it's wonderful".

women cooking food and caring for their children
Homemaking and not being allowed outside are not synonymous.

It just was the best system of that time.
You can't use moral relativism. Again, your assertion was "India is the best country for women". Back in ancient Greece the institution of slavery was morally acceptable, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a raw deal for the slaves, or that the slaves wouldn't have preferred to be free.
So calm down. suyashsing234 is a troll. A fundamentalist like he pretends to be doesn't attend thinkers/programmers forum.
I was initially rather upset at the turn of events in this thread. But now, I want it to stand.
I still want the posts reported, but I do not want them necessarily deleted. If they are deleted, I would prefer that to be the discretion of the poster, so that he have the choice of how to preserve/regain his own dignity.


censorship and online discourse
We like to believe that we have the right to say whatever we want online.

We don’t.

When we begin to express opinions that are unreservedly offensive, such as generalizing half the women on the planet as “selfish and making stupid comments”, then we cross into territory that is not acceptable in public discourse.

Most forums have statements about acceptable content, and warn that unacceptable content is not tolerated, and will typically list things that are unacceptable. Cplusplus.com prefers not to be so lawyeresque, but it does have such a statement:
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/6/
Feel free to participate in a constructive and polite way in any topic of this category. Messages may be deleted or moved without prior notice and may prompt the suspension of user accounts.



psychological response
When confronted by incorrect action (or, in this case, words), a deep part of the human psyche kicks in, called pride. It makes us, initially, angry to have been corrected. But here is where the response may vary. After that initial anger, some of us can recognize that we were, in fact, outspoken and perhaps we need to learn something. This is a difficult choice to make, particularly as it requires us to admit we were wrong. Others of us, however, cannot let go of the apparent damage to our reputation because the perceived insult is intolerable to the ego.

Ego is where pride and anger cannot let go. Ego is where we are unwilling to look inward and make corrections, and so must instead find fault with others first. The turn in this thread exemplifies the problem, and presents us with the common responses made by ego in an attempt to regain face.

To be clear, while I did not directly attack anyone in this thread, it was taken as such.



typical behavior 
typical response
The first way to deal with unwanted rebuke is to categorize it as something beneath you. The response you got was not valid; it was “typical”. Typical of what? Or whom? Why, of those who aren’t as intelligent, capable, or understanding of you. In other words, the response is invalidated because it shows contempt for your a priori correctness.

See how this is a logical problem?
  • I am correct, therefore you must be incorrect.
  • I cannot be incorrect.

See also how this helps an injured ego hang on? By refusing the possibility that you have made an error you close yourself to checking your ego.



from a feminist 
calling someone a racist, misogynist
Next is what psychologists and sociologists call “categorization”. In neither case is the categorization directed at the person making the angry response, but it is meant to undervalue his opponent.

The first form is easiest to recognize. Calling someone a “feminist” is directly labeling him/her, and is meant pejoratively. (Like calling someone a “baby”.)*

The second form is similar, but uses a role reversal to do the same thing. In this scenario, the attacker pretends that he is being attacked with unjust and outrageous labels by his opponent.

Here, it is claimed that I called him a racist. To be clear, the word “racist” is introduced here. Somehow additional negative qualities have aggregated themselves into the problem that, until now, where not there. Also, until now, no one has called anyone “misogynist”. It was not even said that anything misogynistic had been posted (even though it had). What was said was that I would prefer not to see misogyny posted in the thread that I started, along with my opinion of said misogyny: “I would rather my thread not turn into misogynistic BS.”

Turning the attack, as you might call it, is another common pattern of deflecting responsibility for what was actually said. Misogynistic remarks were made. Claiming insult only seeks to avoid responsibility for those remarks.



as soon as they speak something you don't like 
starts to cuss and report lol.
Next is a formulated effort to discredit one’s opponent by categorizing his response into small-mindedness.

Both play back to the idea of censorship, but in this case, the idea that censorship is being applied because what was said was simply not liked.

Part of the appeal of this response is that there is a degree of truth to it. I don’t like what was said.

The lie, the twist to it, is that this implies that the censorship is simply a way of removing my opposition’s point of view. The reality is that the censorship is because my opposition’s language is offensive and inappropriate. Language about a keeping women in their place, for whatever reason, is, often by explicit definition, inappropriate. Especially on a C++ forum. Even in the lounge, the language was added to a topic that had nothing to do with women’s status in the world. I suppose if a topic had been specifically started to discuss women’s affairs it might be a different issue, but regardless, in this venue, in this topic, the language is unwanted and, moreover, remains socially unacceptable.



can't respond 
starts to cuss
Oh, and yeah, sorry for the (very mild) cussing. You know, it is not a logical fallacy to call someone a jerk, or a moron, or an a-hole (Which I have yet to explicitly do to you), or to point out that someone is behaving like a jerk, or a moron, or an a-hole. It might be a bit of a faux pas, socially speaking, but when someone is behaving like a jerk, and a moron, and an a-hole, it is wholly valid Truth In Advertising.

If someone enters your home and begins saying uncouth things to your family, it is reasonable to tell them to “get the hell out”. If someone starts spray painting your car, it is reasonable to tell them to “get lost”. If someone starts editorializing your words into something you did not say, it is reasonable to tell them that they are getting reported.

And if someone starts a topic about boorish, uncouth behavior, and someone else decides to join and begin exhibiting boorish, uncouth behavior, it is totally reasonable to tell them to scram.

Heck, I was even kind about it. I first asked very nicely, of a very generalized everyone, please do not derail my thread with anti-woman commentary.

It would seem to me that the one who cannot manage a proper response is the one who has been so offended, by an online forum, of all things, that he has gone to great response to post as much garbage about women and angry attacks at those who are consistently asking him to stop.



We don’t care what you think about women.
We don’t want to hear it. Whether you like it or not, it is misogyny. It is socially unacceptable. It is rude to trash someone’s thread because you are angry about it. All this does is reflect very poorly on you.

Please stop.


Because all you are doing is proving the original point of this thread.


*While I personally think feminism is a form of extremist androgyny, feminists throughout the ages have raised a lot of very good and valid points about our male-centered society and the negative consequences on women. Don’t become a feminist; but read what they say, because a lot of what they say is right.
Yes, indeed.

I don't think I'm going to engage with @suyashing234 any further here

Edit:
mbozzi wrote:
common sense isn't a replacement for research, and you're an idiot if you think it is.
I should have left the sentence as "Common sense isn't a replacement for research."

I'm sorry for writing what I did. It was pointlessly rude, and I'll try not to do it again.
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@Duthomhas don't waste your time, he's not interested in arguments.

suyashsing234 wrote:
Guys, I am not responding anymore to this thread but will read your any more viewpoints.
A typical troll statement.
closed account (E0p9LyTq)
Well, interesting how a post about ego, about noob posters expecting this to be their own personal programming resource, sure got someone showing their hubris.
Sadly, it was one of our own who turned out to be the exemplar. I have always thought his efforts on the forums to be very good. The turn of events here really hit me by surprise.



Online web forums like ours tend to attract a fairly liberal population as regular posters. More conservative people tend to lurk instead. And a lot of lurkers are both liberal and conservative; they just don’t want the kind of grief that threads like this seem to draw out.

(So, yes, I think I should have seen this coming. Alas.)

We don’t always agree. I would say we rarely agree on things.


For example, if I may, I will use my friend helios as an example foil. He and I have butted heads in the past. Personally, I think he is in many ways a liberal extremist. He probably disagrees, and he does so through his (very valid) view of the world.

Does that mean I should abuse him for making a statement I disagree with?
No. Absolutely not.

Does that mean I cannot disagree with him?
Of course not.

I have an odd image of him in my head, sitting around with his friends and laughing while saying “integer” to each other. This is a very silly image, and one that does not represent the reality of his life in any real way. But the very silliness of it keeps it in my head, and reminds me that he isn’t a robot, but a real human being.

Ultimately, if he or I were to say something reprehensible, I think we would both be ashamed of ourselves on reflection. And I think we have both grown enough to admit it. (At least, I have. He may have already been there.)

As a result, I trust and value helios’s opinion, even if, after considering something he said, I reject it. Being able to engage in discourse without resorting to virulent attacks is what makes men and women “grown-ups” and not kindergarten bullies who don’t know how to play.


The point of this thread, though, is that people have to start living as if they were grown-ups whether or not they have actually made it there. And growing up involves a cultural set of responses, including our ‘language of correct adult conversation’ and a faux intellectualism that posers realize early on that they must use to be considered seriously.

I have had posts on SO deleted, because someone attacked my (unoffensive) post using the aforementioned faux intellectualism, and my response was basically, “what the hell, dude? Go away.” Yes, I am sure that I could have re-engaged with the same faux intellectualism and had a better, but long and drawn-out, outcome. And some moderator said, “Screw it, just delete it all and make it go away.”


My problem is I hate putting up with crap, especially when wrapped in that smug, bullying, faux intellectualism that makes people feel smart about themselves online.

It is the same reason for this post so long ago:
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/106127/

Which everyone (rightly) got a good laugh from. devonrevenge’s response cracked me up. I couldn’t stop laughing for a couple of days.

I put it there to remind myself (and maybe others) that we all have to, at times, deal with someone who is so under-educated and uncomprehending of the topic that it actually hurts to read feels the need to prove themselves master of a thread through anti-social behavior.

Stuff like, “PM me and I’ll devote some time to give you the real answer. [Because these other losers aren’t as cool as I am to spend one-on-one time working through this with you, right?]” —All targeted at easy prey: newbies unfamiliar with online programming culture (and its pitfalls).

But it is also there to remind me that I am not always right.

I misread stuff all the time. And I hope I’m good enough to go back and say, “yeah, I was lost, ignore my comments.” But I know that I’m not that good, and dumb things I say remain.


Thank you all for your good sense and for putting up with my ranting. It is nice to get it off my chest to people who will at least roll their eyes and say, “meh, whatever.”
closed account (E0p9LyTq)
@Duthomhas,

I come here to cplusplus and participate to get away from the hyper-partisan politics I experience elsewhere on the interwebz. Programming, especially programming well IMO, doesn't care one whit what one's politics are.

So I ain't the best person here to offer up programming advice, being someone that is still learning while self-teaching. As much as I offer advice I also suck up what others who live and breath programming can produce.

A lot of the conversation here in the lounge is fun to read. This thread, OTOH, especially since it was dragged so far off topic by someone is not.

On the original topic, posts being edited to remove information or even outright deleted.....

I suspect some regular here is sometimes deleting posts of new users who are abusing the forum as their own person teaching resource. If the abusing users don't want to let others learn from their questions maybe the regular feels they shouldn't be allowed to participate in the future, deleting others' posts restricts the access the offenders can exercise.

Just some speculation on my part, in what could be a vain attempt to drag the thread back to its original purpose.
FurryGuy wrote:
I suspect some regular here is sometimes deleting posts of new users who are abusing the forum as their own person teaching resource.
Yes someone is doing that. I have my hunches, but won't say anything because I very well could be wrong as to who it is.
I've seen posts disappear because someone cross-posted a question twice. I think this should be considered an abuse because the user essentially gets banned if enough of their posts are reported. I don't think I've ever seen repeat offenders for double/cross posts -- it mostly just comes from a one-time misunderstanding of how separated the different (sub)forums are...

Granted, most if not all of the questions I've seen disappear are low-quality, but something irks me the wrong way to see this "vigilante" moderation, because the people can learn from their mistakes (dhayden's post is very enlightening on this).

(Also, agreed, I could reply with a non-troll post to the off-topic discussion that happened, but I want to refrain from it.)
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closed account (E0p9LyTq)
Yes someone is doing that. I have my hunches, but won't say anything because I very well could be wrong as to who it is.

Why are you looking so accusatory at me, Ganado?


/sarc
FurryGuy wrote:
I suspect some regular here is sometimes deleting posts of new users who are abusing the forum as their own person teaching resource. If the abusing users don't want to let others learn from their questions maybe the regular feels they shouldn't be allowed to participate in the future, deleting others' posts restricts the access the offenders can exercise.

I think some people are quick to hit the report button. It's a bit of a double edged sword, good for dealing with spam and trolls but can be abused (intentionally or otherwise) to punish newbies. I don't tend to use the report button against normal users, I'd rather tell them 'face to face' so to speak. I've always been an advocate of seeing who is reporting and the reason why.

Possibly the easiest way to deal with OPs deleting their posts is to quote their question or the part that you are replying to.
I am not sure I would classify it as the same. Deleting bad quality posts from people who care nothing to learn how to post doesn’t bother me.

Basic (online) social grace is taught. And sometimes, sadly, the way to learn is to get slammed for the lack. I have been ultra-slammed by uber-moderators on other forums for saying stupid things. Helped me to learn.

I think the difference is in how you get moderated. Being warned and directed to a better response, or to site posting rules, and given another chance before deletion/banning/whatever is much nicer than someone channeling his inner sysop.

I think we’re still the friendliest place on the web for newbies.
Personally, I would not report any post unless I have concluded that it's most likely spam. Furthermore, I'll say it right now: if anyone finds a heated argument in this forum with some of the posts reported, that was definitely not me.
I have at times indirectly deleted posts that at first glance seemed legitimate but were just copy-pasted from elsewhere on the web. Also other things I've seen on occasion is a strange question being asked by a new member and then another new member answering it, which I thought was quite suspicious.
Honestly the word "troll" is over-killed.

Yes Suyash might have an opinion that isn't encouraged by most people, still it's his opinion and it's a legitimate opinion. He might not defend his views very well, but still that doesn't make him a "troll".

There's no need to try and convince him that he's wrong. He can have his own opinions. Often times in online discussions (or even in real life) people get mad, are hateful, speak rubbish.. etc (am not referring to this thread) but that's NORMAL. So you should expect that.

Being bigoted is not the same as being a troll. People who legitimately believe in something should not be judged. Whether you dislike them is up to you, but there is no notion of everybody hates you.

There are no rules in this forum about the nature of the discussions that happen in this subforum. So whether the admin considers this as "disruptive behavior" is up to him. So we DON'T have the right to police this forum and say what's wrong and what's not wrong, rather we can suggest what's inappropriate but whether it really is inappropriate is up to the person who hosts this forum.

I'm not saying it's wrong to report him. It's right because this is something that is likely to be considered as inappropriate.
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